From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <fresheneesz@gmail.com> Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B4AC000B for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 19:13:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBD84032A for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 19:13:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z_5PLxy87HrR for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 19:13:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-ej1-x635.google.com (mail-ej1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43FBE4022C for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Sat, 5 Mar 2022 19:13:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id hw13so23871584ejc.9 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Sat, 05 Mar 2022 11:13:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=2fljApmT/lr8S7RsprLZ6X/A8EaTU+zoyJUQmOFBVsM=; b=BroWO2/e7rvFW3akBzVdJr/jXw7NFrbv3oZpke81HP9uMgDfX1JamB99w/0y8qEv9e O0tAkRiWxOE2f2wu8a4bjhnbhTHbZlAp1zYwJklEfXaIbF6s19IE7YgJWNkfcqa4lrle qZdlZKqiK/3/mMIBz9JQXaK1g5G67awmGA4/yuz7aTjjdN1ZjYaQzceG6zYmabw/vUfU x8zuYBKff42OaArHFyIAmb2VpDkimSrEHwWYz+1noZzPK81HhwZtnILG9Ng4yGXXN2yW mFeSCA1xk2GTtTAniLrCAadb0FC5urax3An6mC3dINoQfiZ+C6j+owt6/FCI7/V6Rrtf ahhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=2fljApmT/lr8S7RsprLZ6X/A8EaTU+zoyJUQmOFBVsM=; b=go/+bTrVAkctcfB5LRFoZOZwM/RrHXBt4KaiPZEetlg8XuHHGpYjnCOtfw6aTXtnHi FTEhYYF6H0FRp9CLjMEAknOx/ZSxGOSEyN1GbYsZ/hecap/myQrPCXjdyHsYSUVRpS0R UMbrivIqWeualfwUh5tBn3LLdPnHSUs6o5riDTrHA3zQHIB7vQDtVXpjVCdw2vQ8yk/e iF1jcQ0ETe7PLlgaQXDaReTyST2X7NTlZ5FdOW+HLJt1K9mqanI/bDSn8hHmTaljgYhX NpTTIIIPnz3eLrF4NMTMkZaZcCHI3pAixuOCsBEd4YCIgguSW1l1NctY03YMRf7wSdMf iK1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YWup07zhY0VoFMBhKt6kIyMlMEc/hmsY/eETgVbb2al31OcnX GAnS7iLgFpjlwFRqgdPWxmSwSUFHYEj6BVq9UBRlPphr X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyQKUBrZJ0K96YnJEEKzVQe5TkuKGKLeD6Ptj+Nh5y60HQY95VVR/6Wn9O9oft9z7Z6GeF1ERkFFNww1zucD48= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7e90:b0:6da:49e4:c7be with SMTP id qb16-20020a1709077e9000b006da49e4c7bemr3612141ejc.493.1646507624258; Sat, 05 Mar 2022 11:13:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <CANK0iRNL82xvOqiJcR2k64bOMnOdmRBdQUzuJAQKO9QzHKvHAg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CANK0iRNL82xvOqiJcR2k64bOMnOdmRBdQUzuJAQKO9QzHKvHAg@mail.gmail.com> From: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 13:13:27 -0600 Message-ID: <CAGpPWDZqnAo=S_mSH2288kHF6DFS2oKbTqfEzAzNNz4KE2kicA@mail.gmail.com> To: Asher Hopp <asher@seent.com>, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001062a405d97d6eb8" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 19:39:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Draft Submission X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2022 19:13:49 -0000 --0000000000001062a405d97d6eb8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you're serious about this, you should write up considerations around using the satoshi as a unit. That unit has none of the problems you describe. Satoshis is already a well accepted unit, and is likely to be a very practical one that might match within an order of magnitude of (the current buying power of) US cents. > this BIP is a consensus change around the display of Bitcoin wallet balances Fyi, this is not something that's considered a "consensus change", which is something that affects the validity of a block. On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, 09:19 Asher Hopp via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > This is my first time submitting anything to this mailer list, so I am > here with humility and I would appreciate any feedback about any aspect o= f > my BIP draft submission below. If you want to reach out to me directly yo= u > can email me at asher@seent.com. > > Abstract > Rather than having a maximum supply of 21 million Bitcoin, there should b= e > a maximum supply of 21 trillion Bitcoin. This can be accomplished by movi= ng > the decimal place 6 places to the right of where it is today, while > reserving two degrees of accuracy after the decimal point. > > Copyright > This BIP is under the Creative Commons Zero (CC0) license. > > Background > On February 6th, 2010 Satoshi Nakamoto responded to a bitcointalk forum > discussion about the divisibility and economics of bitcoin as a global > currency. Satoshi chimed in to the conversation when two ideas formed: > 1. Bitcoin is so scarce that a perception may exist that there is not > enough to go around =E2=80=93 there is not even 1 Bitcoin available per p= erson on > Earth. > 2. If Bitcoin=E2=80=99s value continues to deflate against inflating fiat > currencies, Bitcoin transactions may become smaller and smaller, requirin= g > the potentially tedious use of many leading 0=E2=80=99s after the decimal= point. > > Satoshi=E2=80=99s suggested response to these issues was a software updat= e to > change where the decimal place and commas are displayed when software > interprets a Bitcoin wallet=E2=80=99s balance: =E2=80=9CIf it gets tireso= me working with > small numbers, we could change where the display shows the decimal point. > Same amount of money, just different convention for where the ","'s and > "."'s go. e.g. moving the decimal place 3 places would mean if you had > 1.00000 before, now it shows it as 1,000.00.=E2=80=9D ( > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D44.msg267#msg267) > > Since 2010, when Satoshi wrote that post Bitcoin has indeed become a > globally adopted currency, the dollar has inflated significantly, and > Bitcoin has deflated. There are many debates in the Bitcoin community > concerning the nomenclature of Bitcoin=E2=80=99s atomic unit (satoshis, s= ats, bits, > bitcents, mbits, etc). The debate has somewhat spiraled out of control, a= nd > there is no clearly emerging community consensus. Additionally this issue > impacts the technology world outside of Bitcoin because there are several > proposals for various Unicode characters which factions of the Bitcoin > community have started using to represent the atomic Bitcoin unit despite > no formalized consensus. Therefore The conditions are right to move > forward with Satoshi's vision and move the decimal place. > > Details > There are several benefits to moving the decimal 6 places to the right in > Bitcoin wallet balance notation: > 1. Unit bias. It is a widely held belief that Bitcoin=E2=80=99s adoption = may be > hindered because would-be participants have a negative perception of > Bitcoin=E2=80=99s unit size. One Bitcoin so expensive, and some people ma= y be > turned off by the idea of only owning a fraction of a unit. > 2. Community cohesion. The Bitcoin community is deeply divided by various > proposed atomic unit names, but if this BIP is adopted there is no need t= o > debate nomenclature for the Bitcoin atomic unit. Bitcoin software provide= rs > can simply continue using the Bitcoin Unicode character (=E2=82=BF, U+20B= F), and > there are no additional unicode characters required. > 3. Simplicity and standardization. Bitcoin has no borders and is used by > people in just about every corner of the world. Other than the name Bitco= in > and the Unicode character we have, there is no consensus around other > notations for Bitcoin as a currency. Rather than introducing new concepts > for people to learn, this BIP allows Bitcoin to grow under a single > standardized unit specification, with a single standard unit name, unit > size, and unit Unicode character. > > There is only one drawback I can identify with this BIP, and it is purely > psychological. Moving the decimal place may produce bad optics in the > short-term, and Bitcoin=E2=80=99s detractors will likely seize the opport= unity to > spread misinformation that moving the decimal place changes the monetary > value of anyone=E2=80=99s Bitcoin. It is important to note that if this B= IP were to > gain consensus approval, the community would need to prepare talking poin= ts > and coordinate educational outreach efforts to explain to Bitcoin users a= nd > wallet developers that this change does not change the proportion of the > total value of Bitcoin any particular wallet holds, and is simply a > notational change. There are no =E2=80=9Cwinners=E2=80=9D and no =E2=80= =9Closers=E2=80=9D in this BIP =E2=80=93 all > Bitcoin participants would be impacted in an equal and proportionate mann= er > on pari passu terms, and there is no change to Bitcoin=E2=80=99s monetary= policy. > > Implementation > The software updates needed to implement this BIP are restricted to the > wallet's CLI/GUI configuration, and only involve changing the location of > the decimal point and commas when viewing balances or reviewing transacti= on > data. Each wallet provider including Bitcoin Core would simply need to > update the display of a wallet=E2=80=99s balance by moving the decimal pl= ace 6 > places to the right. > > Compatibility > Because this BIP is a consensus change around the display of Bitcoin > wallet balances and transaction amounts, everything will be backwards > compatible with previous versions of Bitcoin. There would be no > interruption in services for Bitcoin wallets which do not implement this > BIP, however there could conceivably be human error problems with > miscommunication between counterparties after this BIP is implemented. I > believe this risk is extremely minimal because an error of 6 decimal plac= es > is so significant that it should be immediately noticed by any two partie= s > conducting a transaction. > > Cheers, > Asher > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000001062a405d97d6eb8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">If y= ou're serious about this, you should write up considerations around usi= ng the satoshi as a unit. That unit has none of the problems you describe. = Satoshis is already a well accepted unit, and is likely to be a very practi= cal one that might match within an order of magnitude of (the current buyin= g power of) US cents.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>>=C2=A0<spa= n style=3D"font-size:12.8px">this BIP is a consensus change around the disp= lay of Bitcoin wallet balances</span><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-= size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-size:12= .8px">Fyi, this is not something that's considered a "consensus ch= ange", which is something that affects the validity of a block.=C2=A0<= /span></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"= gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, 09:19 Asher Hopp via bitcoin-dev <<a hr= ef=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div= ><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1= px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This is my first time= submitting anything to this mailer list, so I am here with humility and I = would appreciate any feedback about any aspect of my BIP draft submission b= elow. If you want to reach out to me directly you can email me at <a href= =3D"mailto:asher@seent.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"= >asher@seent.com</a>.</div><div><br></div>Abstract<br>Rather than having a = maximum supply of 21 million Bitcoin, there should be a maximum supply of 2= 1 trillion Bitcoin. This can be accomplished by moving the decimal place 6 = places to the right of where it is today, while reserving two degrees of ac= curacy after the decimal point.<br><br>Copyright<br>This BIP is under the C= reative Commons Zero (CC0) license.<br><br>Background<br>On February 6th, 2= 010 Satoshi Nakamoto responded to a bitcointalk forum discussion about the = divisibility and economics of bitcoin as a global currency. Satoshi chimed = in to the conversation when two ideas formed:<br>1. Bitcoin is so scarce th= at a perception may exist that there is not enough to go around =E2=80=93 t= here is not even 1 Bitcoin available per person on Earth.<br>2. If Bitcoin= =E2=80=99s value continues to deflate against inflating fiat currencies, Bi= tcoin transactions may become smaller and smaller, requiring the potentiall= y tedious use of many leading 0=E2=80=99s after the decimal point.<br><br>S= atoshi=E2=80=99s suggested response to these issues was a software update t= o change where the decimal place and commas are displayed when software int= erprets a Bitcoin wallet=E2=80=99s balance: =E2=80=9CIf it gets tiresome wo= rking with small numbers, we could change where the display shows the decim= al point.=C2=A0 Same amount of money, just different convention for where t= he ","'s and "."'s go. =C2=A0e.g. moving the de= cimal place 3 places would mean if you had 1.00000 before, now it shows it = as 1,000.00.=E2=80=9D (<a href=3D"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic= =3D44.msg267#msg267" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https:= //bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D44.msg267#msg267</a>)<br><br>Since 2010= , when Satoshi wrote that post Bitcoin has indeed become a globally adopted= currency, the dollar has inflated significantly, and Bitcoin has deflated.= There are many debates in the Bitcoin community concerning the nomenclatur= e of Bitcoin=E2=80=99s atomic unit (satoshis, sats, bits, bitcents, mbits, = etc). The debate has somewhat spiraled out of control, and there is no clea= rly emerging community consensus. Additionally this issue impacts the techn= ology world outside of Bitcoin because there are several proposals for vari= ous Unicode characters which factions of the Bitcoin community have started= using to represent the atomic Bitcoin unit despite no formalized consensus= .=C2=A0 Therefore The conditions are right to move forward with Satoshi'= ;s vision and move the decimal place.<div><br>Details<br>There are several = benefits to moving the decimal 6 places to the right in Bitcoin wallet bala= nce notation:<br>1. Unit bias. It is a widely held belief that Bitcoin=E2= =80=99s adoption may be hindered because would-be participants have a negat= ive perception of Bitcoin=E2=80=99s unit size. One Bitcoin so expensive, an= d some people may be turned off by the idea of only owning a fraction of a = unit.<br>2. Community cohesion. The Bitcoin community is deeply divided by = various proposed atomic unit names, but if this BIP is adopted there is no = need to debate nomenclature for the Bitcoin atomic unit. Bitcoin software p= roviders can simply continue using the Bitcoin Unicode character (=E2=82=BF= , U+20BF), and there are no additional unicode characters required.<br>3. S= implicity and standardization. Bitcoin has no borders and is used by people= in just about every corner of the world. Other than the name Bitcoin and t= he Unicode character we have, there is no consensus around other notations = for Bitcoin as a currency. Rather than introducing new concepts for people = to learn, this BIP allows Bitcoin to grow under a single standardized unit = specification, with a single standard unit name, unit size, and unit Unicod= e character.<br><br>There is only one drawback I can identify with this BIP= , and it is purely psychological. Moving the decimal place may produce bad = optics in the short-term, and Bitcoin=E2=80=99s detractors will likely seiz= e the opportunity to spread misinformation that moving the decimal place ch= anges the monetary value of anyone=E2=80=99s Bitcoin. It is important to no= te that if this BIP were to gain consensus approval, the community would ne= ed to prepare talking points and coordinate educational outreach efforts to= explain to Bitcoin users and wallet developers that this change does not c= hange the proportion of the total value of Bitcoin any particular wallet ho= lds, and is simply a notational change. There are no =E2=80=9Cwinners=E2=80= =9D and no =E2=80=9Closers=E2=80=9D in this BIP =E2=80=93 all Bitcoin parti= cipants would be impacted in an equal and proportionate manner on pari pass= u terms, and there is no change to Bitcoin=E2=80=99s monetary policy. <br><= br>Implementation<br>The software updates needed to implement this BIP are = restricted to the wallet's CLI/GUI configuration,=C2=A0and only involve= changing the location of the decimal point and commas when viewing balance= s or reviewing transaction data. Each wallet provider including Bitcoin Cor= e would simply need to update the display of a wallet=E2=80=99s balance by = moving the decimal place 6 places to the right.<br><br>Compatibility<br>Bec= ause this BIP is a consensus change around the display of Bitcoin wallet ba= lances and transaction amounts, everything will be backwards compatible wit= h previous versions of Bitcoin. There would be no interruption in services = for Bitcoin wallets which do not implement this BIP, however there could co= nceivably be human error problems with miscommunication between counterpart= ies after this BIP is implemented. I believe this risk is extremely minimal= because an error of 6 decimal places is so significant that it should be i= mmediately noticed by any two parties conducting a transaction.<div><div><b= r></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Asher</div></div></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer = noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.li= nuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> </blockquote></div></div> </div> --0000000000001062a405d97d6eb8--