From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A16C000B for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:13:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5251605FB for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:13:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7FLmx2eRGBlq for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:13:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3805460624 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:13:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id s22so24463899ljg.5 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 04:13:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=I8JkeaFBb8FiPta0V4BJd7XTF1GLDxFa+PSpZ39GNYc=; b=dVh12xMIhkDBukz0uANgQ8sDny0WCgQlhVmCwiIFnPtsVabHaqEa6fP21mAJgJa2q0 TzuaUz6m2yeaVg5f2K1LHQL8i0iANfxmIa2GXfZJOR+e7iJdwGYOyuKNke8GVAvO6On3 jb6ijKL76F4nei9LJJXS6mdtte10c11YoqCrHH7b60SYxD1qKqHDr0oI5Uw8ZC66Xayu tNRloDHNl4+aSJ0FL0XPi78j0APq3iYDfDM13uvwlqYpG0io+ZMH2IBJdMgegyRKjOVx inPgfCfbJ9grUJYCmcBXinVXmF7ggo83/yHxr/uyylmch9Ke7KrO14loYdW/DTN1Mx7E YHNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=I8JkeaFBb8FiPta0V4BJd7XTF1GLDxFa+PSpZ39GNYc=; b=tt/f3BTIl3HY+Ae9mSPEj8Tb5seASDKQ09dO1XdQBFfxP4M3KkyMZ1pbsvWjVtzZte vI7e/1LisxarzFQh7E6jaNyckUabnVYBWl3vfpVPLonoJ6FKqPwZVlSViXMk7Rk4aPH3 jsqXxawmmUufpHIt4tQCLiJ+OYtjhy8YaoIzXOtUQWpvxYFKr9FgNPC1Q5uVo3d/wbUf 1PlrvVAQQ4Qs0j327+9vypHvrr3DJcRC9z/NaRxsttPZRfIQS1WfhLaKCU30syWeVe/V SvY5fSAXb677ogYtl7LYxTCm89/3NTf4tF7LxW2xf4Wdc4iR4kbzWbv08PFlLdJpEMg3 S/Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5304O4ILezvIGnmgYR4GweRdPLHEO7gsGAM5eBcaRMGXJ28i+yPc oeOQ0EGqhaO7MjOSZA20f2zYtDkVVEso9pFuTts= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6BgjLAn+++HTHEi/7sF5/U+lDtCch6787dA3NmJWlNKuP9CqFx3C/LrTHjjzXomGJxPvIUpK8bYw88cXb0XM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a87:: with SMTP id p7mr17601175lji.477.1623755617050; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 04:13:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6do5xN2g5LPnFeM55iJ-4C4MyXOu_KeXxy68Xt4dJQMhi3LJ8ZrLICmEUlh8JGfDmsDG12m1JDAh0e0huwK_MlyKpdfn22ru3zsm7lYLfBo=@protonmail.com> <30li5MRxkBhzLxLmzRnHkCdn8n3Feqegi-FLZ5VDyIX2uRJfq4kVtrsLxw6dUtsM1atYV25IfIfDaQp4s2Dn2vc8LvYkhbAsn0v_Fwjerpw=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: James MacWhyte Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:13:10 +0200 Message-ID: To: Lloyd Fournier , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c1a33305c4cc1006" Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 11:13:40 -0000 --000000000000c1a33305c4cc1006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" @Lloyd wrote: Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys online so > in Alogorand you can authorize a set of "participation keys"[1] that will > be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's behalf. > Hopefully you've spotted the problem. > You can send your participation keys to any malicious party with a nice > website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return. > Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace! > I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you want to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it to work, and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can join a mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purposes. Or you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some "cloud mining" scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised return. So as you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well! The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-prone, amateur way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a web connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW. --000000000000c1a33305c4cc1006 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

@Lloyd wrote:

Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys = online so in Alogorand you can authorize a set of "participation keys&= quot;[1] that will be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's = behalf.
Hopefully you've spotted the problem.
You can send your p= articipation keys to any malicious party with a nice website (see random ex= ample [2]) offering you a good return.
Damn it's still Proof-of-Squa= reSpace!

I believe we are talking= about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you want to mine PoW, you need to b= uy expensive hardware and configure it to work, and wait a long time to get= any return by solo mining. Or you can join a mining pool, which might use = your hashing power for nefarious purposes. Or you might skip the hardware a= ll together and fall for some "cloud mining" scheme with a pretty= website and a high rate of advertised return. So as you can see, Proof-of-= SquareSpace exists in PoW as well!

The PoS equival= ent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own validator and not outs= ourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have the professional/expe= rt way of participating, and the fraud-prone, amateur way of participating.= The only difference is, with PoS the professional/expert way is accessible= to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a web connection, which is a much lower = barrier to entry than PoW.
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