From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B5FD7A8; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:26:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-qt0-f174.google.com (mail-qt0-f174.google.com [209.85.216.174]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D0E1678; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qt0-f174.google.com with SMTP id m5-v6so12047066qti.1; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:26:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=YQjHNzclP3wI4RiJ+yZTupMOaz2XqFGG8Krlf2A9IEw=; b=ByOT5j+V5ZN/e0GYTRIPShXQUDLfaUFUOn8+M/WI8FNf9bkz6HOBmEL21of3mX2AqK NTXCUnNknndBatUqgJf/08UGFMsPSxqj84RmYnt2JyHzjBHuuqxlf7oR2FkbcpRfYFfT oRXyIWlZVWtTw8yJEvnYOr79lpe5FxztT3jheXZKfAc7TG8xaXnNbq/BtJ/tQP7dsbkI Rrlx2RPZI1YxDEdT6XOVQzRmxMGovoaYFhYYiMweWZgRMfOpDW45c9+Iuykv+/OjwE3R LF2m4qd1ofLBRRYkOXh12T1pu8IA7gxJjWeqDjztq5Ce9LQeJLm1e6MRmDFE10ln0zmR F+HQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YQjHNzclP3wI4RiJ+yZTupMOaz2XqFGG8Krlf2A9IEw=; b=HjqxzZSZoF0NL3uz2MvDIY2PPupq3zCG+ImyO8FvnUzxyaEuMyp24bK0lCp2VAQoLm C44dyKwbtzI1Ki6pj5uc5oo7aDtOPHXwLYxlpb84WWEEVSus6hyYmbrfGn+SEnJVNjTE lcJswpMOCOkPQD8EdT9qNP6Yf1pkb5HGRG5bUChT5U1uSNSIhp44LBG8B6Jn7nEXSbf5 6opgzmrxG9xud1+MbJ89r9tEVcdRHzW7vL/VNcacQXXLKVY8aW+4FL9Y12x7Arj0r0aZ GMevdz43cIuJJ65490Cn8q2U8UHLR86o4EGwfhJ078CKv9mcYeilkdcnsK3Lf9KE9g0C KkqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDkbmK5C/dYPl3tQMm/+ZOTXD3Ct+AYdCrNV+y8QTu7bOuaYTP9 fQrvRzu/InmRE1U8QCPkLCdYhdBToRicVwDjMFI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqr0XTb04toGSz76plBm1AzQEuN1stWUQbdeL0egQDcfDYDe4JRu+WeKRqvgEu9yX3yOLe2hBXCfhGT2x1mpS0= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f8c9:: with SMTP id h9-v6mr11757015qvo.122.1525112772715; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:26:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: desnider@gmail.com Received: by 10.233.239.214 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:25:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <871sewirni.fsf@gmail.com> References: <871sewirni.fsf@gmail.com> From: Dario Sneidermanis Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:25:42 -0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Qwms6WLa2NZ3w1z9JlkuUhd4Nm8 Message-ID: To: Christian Decker , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000f6989056b14fd67" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:37:43 +0000 Cc: lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP sighash_noinput X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:26:14 -0000 --0000000000000f6989056b14fd67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Something like this might also be useful for several use cases related to RBF. For example: Alice sends Bob an RBF-activated transaction T1 with the intention of bumping its fee if necessary. Bob wants to send these funds to Carol, but cannot wait until T1 confirms, so he crafts a transaction T2 that spends T1 using SIGHASH_NOINPUT, and pays Carol. Carol can now make sure she receives the money even if Alice fee-bumps T1, as long as the outputs of the replaced transactions are compatible. Extra care should be taken to avoid rebinding, maybe by including an extra input in T2 that doesn't use SIGHASH_NOINPUT. On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Christian Decker via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to pick up the discussion from a few months ago, and propose a new > sighash flag, `SIGHASH_NOINPUT`, that removes the commitment to the > previous > output. This was previously mentioned on the list by Joseph Poon [1], but > was > never formally proposed, so I wrote a proposal [2]. > > We have long known that `SIGHASH_NOINPUT` would be a great fit for > Lightning. > They enable simple watch-towers, i.e., outsource the need to watch the > blockchain for channel closures, and react appropriately if our > counterparty > misbehaves. In addition to this we just released the eltoo [3,4] paper > which > describes a simplified update mechanism that can be used in Lightning, and > other > off-chain contracts, with any number of participants. > > By not committing to the previous output being spent by the transaction, > we can > rebind an input to point to any outpoint with a matching output script and > value. The binding therefore is no longer explicit through a reference, but > through script compatibility, and the transaction ID reference in the > input is a > hint to validators. The sighash flag is meant to enable some off-chain > use-cases > and should not be used unless the tradeoffs are well-known. In particular > we > suggest using contract specific key-pairs, in order to avoid having any > unwanted > rebinding opportunities. > > The proposal is very minimalistic, and simple. However, there are a few > things > where we'd like to hear the input of the wider community with regards to > the > implementation details though. We had some discussions internally on > whether to > use a separate opcode or a sighash flag, some feeling that the sighash flag > could lead to some confusion with existing wallets, but given that we have > `SIGHASH_NONE`, and that existing wallets will not sign things with unknown > flags, we decided to go the sighash way. Another thing is that we still > commit > to the amount of the outpoint being spent. The rationale behind this is > that, > while rebinding to outpoints with the same value maintains the value > relationship between input and output, we will probably not want to bind to > something with a different value and suddenly pay a gigantic fee. > > The deployment part of the proposal is left vague on purpose in order not > to > collide with any other proposals. It should be possible to introduce it by > bumping the segwit script version and adding the new behavior. > > I hope the proposal is well received, and I'm looking forward to discussing > variants and tradeoffs here. I think the applications we proposed so far > are > quite interesting, and I'm sure there are many more we can enable with this > change. > > Cheers, > Christian > > [1] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/ > 2016-February/012460.html > [2] https://github.com/cdecker/bips/blob/noinput/bip-xyz.mediawiki > [3] https://blockstream.com/2018/04/30/eltoo-next-lightning.html > [4] https://blockstream.com/eltoo.pdf > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000000f6989056b14fd67 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Something like this might also be useful for several use c= ases related to RBF. For example:

Alice sends Bob an RBF= -activated transaction T1 with the intention of bumping its fee if necessar= y. Bob wants to send these funds to Carol, but cannot wait until T1 confirm= s, so he crafts a transaction T2 that spends T1 using SIGHASH_NOINPUT, and = pays Carol. Carol can now make sure she re= ceives the money even if Alice fee-bumps T1, as long as the outputs of the = replaced transactions are compatible.

Extra care s= hould be taken to avoid rebinding, maybe by including an extra input in T2 = that doesn't use=C2=A0SIGHASH_NOINPUT.=

On Mo= n, Apr 30, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Christian Decker via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Hi all,

I'd like to pick up the discussion from a few months ago, and propose a= new
sighash flag, `SIGHASH_NOINPUT`, that removes the commitment to the previou= s
output. This was previously mentioned on the list by Joseph Poon [1], but w= as
never formally proposed, so I wrote a proposal [2].

We have long known that `SIGHASH_NOINPUT` would be a great fit for Lightnin= g.
They enable simple watch-towers, i.e., outsource the need to watch the
blockchain for channel closures, and react appropriately if our counterpart= y
misbehaves. In addition to this we just released the eltoo [3,4] paper whic= h
describes a simplified update mechanism that can be used in Lightning, and = other
off-chain contracts, with any number of participants.

By not committing to the previous output being spent by the transaction, we= can
rebind an input to point to any outpoint with a matching output script and<= br> value. The binding therefore is no longer explicit through a reference, but=
through script compatibility, and the transaction ID reference in the input= is a
hint to validators. The sighash flag is meant to enable some off-chain use-= cases
and should not be used unless the tradeoffs are well-known. In particular w= e
suggest using contract specific key-pairs, in order to avoid having any unw= anted
rebinding opportunities.

The proposal is very minimalistic, and simple. However, there are a few thi= ngs
where we'd like to hear the input of the wider community with regards t= o the
implementation details though. We had some discussions internally on whethe= r to
use a separate opcode or a sighash flag, some feeling that the sighash flag=
could lead to some confusion with existing wallets, but given that we have<= br> `SIGHASH_NONE`, and that existing wallets will not sign things with unknown=
flags, we decided to go the sighash way. Another thing is that we still com= mit
to the amount of the outpoint being spent. The rationale behind this is tha= t,
while rebinding to outpoints with the same value maintains the value
relationship between input and output, we will probably not want to bind to=
something with a different value and suddenly pay a gigantic fee.

The deployment part of the proposal is left vague on purpose in order not t= o
collide with any other proposals. It should be possible to introduce it by<= br> bumping the segwit script version and adding the new behavior.

I hope the proposal is well received, and I'm looking forward to discus= sing
variants and tradeoffs here. I think the applications we proposed so far ar= e
quite interesting, and I'm sure there are many more we can enable with = this
change.

Cheers,
Christian

[1] https://lists.l= inuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012460.htm= l
[2] https://github.com/cdecker/bi= ps/blob/noinput/bip-xyz.mediawiki
[3] https://blockstream.com/2018/04= /30/eltoo-next-lightning.html
[4] https://blockstream.com/eltoo.pdf
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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