From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AFEC002D for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 12:28:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136C484541 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 12:28:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_MIME_MALF=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=synonym-to.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K4KyLNI-Tpj2 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 12:28:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4B0384540 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 12:28:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id r71so9287682pgr.0 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2022 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=synonym-to.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=zhqKtPf2ga2rXMehNic0G+IQ86uPqHHCKGwnUEjKa1E=; b=zKSMumfkwyXXc7e/TtCOu2IkziGHYT6iU8BCpcaqtFncXfY/fcHWqGVS+c670dORqE HVtJjcsYoIE7vJXeq0bONmlju6mCqGhulh2XhZDEahTnI9+V4e8QQCzzpdtlC8+5Jx2f zt33mWX9XnnROIvLg6DK721TAHHTOKT60W1chzH8vdcvXyV2pVbRIOXI8MWsEonhT3P6 uSz/ZVwcuC34P7Lj7UvdIxQriqQm1AM/a7c4HFJiYh3c3DQc0YnERfyVC+MsWaaA5uui C8aixlhtLcdDIn0x1iJ9/XBc+pJ1lJncUbsriSfE5Pt5Dz8qSSvbJdAQweKsTkH1Ofmr JEXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=zhqKtPf2ga2rXMehNic0G+IQ86uPqHHCKGwnUEjKa1E=; b=F1ftTjTTeqgYAUlhxojhD2iiP51gIwwFWvbPPmR/P4C5TRFPBkcnwWrmHvYtWd2CA4 S/bPbUOykTCy7NWDzS3DJI9ylyrZiN8V1jx2ainGLrslcQ+kt7g2uhLQI/6Q/RVeT/py oI27HXG53V3gBBnFqZ30rYhKEmX36ZaNqvmuL79dtqNHuV7f2JXjrDA1RstNXjUYMoZh E32EKrs7qvSg5EhNzihWissY3U3RJhe4z7ZRYyUKaBp7krWSltSJTdu1jyILFm8XbuWb ShCi4oN+H1iONdEYvDE4uYwiHRmZZo8jyxN6a8RPDqmxEPQkcSRZzIZH4G6iItZ5xWFA vAWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530vADZDvvMlDN1ciJpXD8e/xnqkpwM1a5j+1YFy7+fPPzqlqPaS yWLaxNCs+WjzdXXTpvfPQVMjZtQ+Eo/n9OLz5JtxehQOzzyTL+7hbyg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw8jLlB0gu0j5NqIEBfye7E8IwtjF9dZvFs2AXrufvWWOWaw9mR62qhoQdyHKySH3vfGcuA4rLZHeDa6EIBUR0= X-Received: by 2002:a65:6e44:0:b0:3db:219e:2250 with SMTP id be4-20020a656e44000000b003db219e2250mr12859708pgb.369.1654345684715; Sat, 04 Jun 2022 05:28:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: John Carvalho Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 13:27:53 +0100 Message-ID: To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dfa59305e09e5ed9" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 04 Jun 2022 12:36:43 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2022 12:28:07 -0000 --000000000000dfa59305e09e5ed9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Core development is not a hackathon project. None of the quoted following items are features or responsibilities of the Bitcoin software, nor Core developers. Quoted: "- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market. - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity. - Better tooling could be available for application developers. - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries. - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coinjoin. - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to convince a few people for grants." Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but CTV, nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable simply because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might make more people like you or give your friends funding. Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming. -- John Carvalho On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM < bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000 > From: alicexbt > To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion > > Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable > Message-ID: > > protonmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin > > Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CTV > is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart from > the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things: > > - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market. > - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity. > - Better tooling could be available for application developers. > - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries. > - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and > coinjoin. > - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to > convince a few people for grants. > > **Why covenants are not contentious?** > > Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread > misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but > there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant > proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded > approach. > > All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay > with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general. > > **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?** > > I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that > everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in > Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share > honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits. > > I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anything > else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoin > before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build > interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also > believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes > considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a > rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not > mentioned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like other > soft forks. > > /dev/fd0 > > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. > > > ------------------------------ > --000000000000dfa59305e09e5ed9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Core development is not a hackathon proje= ct.

None of the quoted following items are fea= tures=C2=A0or responsibilities=C2=A0of the Bitcoin software, nor Core devel= opers.=C2=A0

Quoted:
"- Developers = can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
- Students le= arn Sapio and not just solidity.
- Better tooling could be available for= application developers.
- Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in = different countries.
- Demand for block space might increase, it wont be= just exchanges and coinjoin.
- Funding of bitcoin developers and projec= ts might improve. Wont need to convince a few people for grants."
<= /div>

Whether you are a child or an attacker= , none of us should care, but CTV, nor any change to Bitcoin software, will= never be justifiable=C2=A0simply because you and some of your friends thin= k it is totally cool and might make more people like you or give your frien= ds funding.

Please stop making noise about CTV, th= is is not a place for spamming.

--
John Carvalho



On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM <bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfou= ndation.org> wrote:

Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000
From: alicexbt <alicexbt@protonmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&g= t;
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <QOWIpROGDv5HHP2GsDiSOsTJ9TVZhFeSP3C03_e2Z3X= tOKC_4N5GJtxbdlxuhErvhLZXo1Rn_7SWAQ9XRPwHFuYyArZryTVENefDZuGTAYA=3D@protonmail.= com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8

Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin

Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CTV i= s the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart from th= e technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:

- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
- Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
- Better tooling could be available for application developers.
- Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
- Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coin= join.
- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to co= nvince a few people for grants.

**Why covenants are not contentious?**

Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread misinf= ormation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but there= are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant proposa= ls in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded approach.=

All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay with= CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.

**How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**

I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that eve= ryone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in Bitco= in. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share hones= t opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.

I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anythin= g else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoi= n before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build i= nteresting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also beli= eve there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes consider= ing each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a rushed s= oft fork, less people followed the research and it was not mentioned on soc= ial media repeatedly by the respected developers like other soft forks.

/dev/fd0


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.


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