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[2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 38308e7fff4ca-2f15e1677aasi129801fa.1.2024.08.01.19.03.44 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Aug 2024 19:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gb@geoburke.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::136; Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-52efd530a4eso11834396e87.0 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2024 19:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3f0e:b0:52e:fef0:1d3d with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-530bb36b75emr1092057e87.8.1722564223628; Thu, 01 Aug 2024 19:03:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: From: George Burke Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 19:03:30 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal To: Jimmy Song Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List , =?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= , Keagan McClelland , Richard Greaser Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a71bbb061ea9bc38" X-Original-Sender: gb@geoburke.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@geoburke.com header.s=google header.b=FJBooqtC; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gb@geoburke.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gb@geoburke.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --000000000000a71bbb061ea9bc38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jimmy, he might be trolling but he replied privately to me with a very thoughtful (though disagreeable) rebuttal. Hard to consider this satirical. Sent from Mobile --=20 George Burke CMO, FounderPool.co Cofounder, PortalDeFi.com Silicon Valley Bitcoin, Organizer San Francisco, CA | San Juan, PR On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM Jimmy Song wrote= : > For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on the original > proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical > "news" site. He's trolling the list. > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland < > keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy >> wherein they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that in= to >> the feerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their bloc= k >> template. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choos= e >> to not take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the >> transaction or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could e= nd >> up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this >> without a consensus fork if there was appetite for it. >> >> However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and >> it is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees= on >> the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where >> they lose fees to the competition. >> >> Keags >> >> On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de = Medeiros < >> jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoi= n >>> thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted= to >>> stress the concept. >>> >>> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from >>> transactions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since= the >>> sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequ= ent >>> transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them? >>> >>> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a >>> simple p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BT= C >>> mean to authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, th= at >>> can only be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key. >>> >>> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax >>> to be implemented? >>> >>> All the best. >>> -- >>> E... >>> >>> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser >>> wrote: >>> >>> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone, >>> >>> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the >>> network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network. >>> >>> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit >>> tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move th= eir >>> coins, providing increased security to the network. >>> >>> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-75= 49b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F0= 0823A94C3D%40gmail.com >>> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQ= B084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJR7vkqSLkLDv%2By8D%2BaFC4p= FDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/CAHYx7BtwRyYSL9Hdv%3D5nbdzBBb3fZmW_VYSWSZZneUUsVyBEkQ%40mail.gma= il.com. --000000000000a71bbb061ea9bc38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jimmy, he might be trolling but he replied privately to m= e with a very thoughtful (though disagreeable) rebuttal. Hard to consider t= his satirical.=C2=A0


Sent fr= om Mobile
--
George Burke
CMO,=C2=A0FounderPool.co
Cofounde= r, PortalDeFi.com
Silicon Valley Bitcoin, Organizer=C2=A0

San Fr= ancisco, CA | San Juan, PR

=C2=A0


On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 6:57=E2=80=AFPM Jimmy Song <jaejoon@gmail.com> wrote:

For those that haven't figured this= out yet, the name on the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or= the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical "news" site. He's trolling th= e list.


On Thu= , Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Hypothe= tically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein they co= nsider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the feerate the= y consider when accepting the transaction into their block template. Howeve= r this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not take this = into consideration when making the choice to mine the transaction or not. I= f enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could end up with a de-facto de= murrage tax. This also means that you can do this without a consensus fork = if there was appetite for it.

However, I suspect there w= ill be extreme resistance to this proposal and it is unlikely that miners w= ould intentionally leave otherwise-good fees on the table simply because th= ey want to play prisoners dilemma games where they lose fees to the competi= tion.

Keags

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80= =AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros <jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:
Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the presiden= t of bitcoin thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail a= nd wanted to stress the concept.=C2=A0

Since the value &= quot;tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transactions that = have not been spent in another transaction, and since the sole purpose of t= he utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subsequent transaction, how = do you proposed to "tax" them?

I mean, l= et's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simple p2pkh = transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean to authori= ze it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can only be done= by me producing a valid signature using a private key.

Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propo= se the tax to be implemented?

=EF=BB=BFHi everyon= e,=C2=A0

It has become apparent to me that there is an i= ssue where users of the network holding their coins, are not adding value t= o the network.

As miners continue to get squeezed post h= alving, they would benefit tremendously from fees being taken from individu= als refusing to move their coins, providing increased security to the netwo= rk.=C2=A0

I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attache= d below.=C2=A0

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<hodltax.md>

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