From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E040CC000B for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:31:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E3E40264 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:31:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2evfDefR9Vw for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:31:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96713400E9 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:31:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id h15so6067056ybm.13 for ; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 20:31:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=w7WyjqQmPeqNqxoGI7z6xelwrSHMmIroPpU9Vj9ew8g=; b=bKVe/buEq5A8ZykUAh57SL1xTmglQDX9yD1HuEKQ+LR4dvEYLNVw7vIdL6y1urZq0b Mr2sMQnwHRdO1iRhRxEuCnNONN4qlC7wwEZPoTZaFT9qCidRXT2pRauPVyvYwPtVewAy gPv4XMB9O7viIW2R0V7Lq1okUSt1Xwl1kOrgjt+IOZ7alNNeTrZLpoOOWJhyXI4wp3cT KfLaZqlXd0xn1ggC+dkyhEKnYwFMhdPTNKdtx6ttwr9bxWNser11/AHuEgeKSo2xrU9o FY7uVfoeBH7jhnVh/Xc1jiSFkfwHID/tj3jgBBmtYMpXlvu98jKnx1esCznez+QCawyl ovqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=w7WyjqQmPeqNqxoGI7z6xelwrSHMmIroPpU9Vj9ew8g=; b=ODjMmXjgaChy2vStgCYoCxuclrxupJ7ZSU9Zz0qKqeX/43RbFqkAy/jCrmgY9TUYGp CDiWeVt3CfycDk7Ps9XGODW4sOTeOjOVh5kmbp35QkdMFqhs1a72BtIinNcmmKfiOQCM 1UWY/tfldeDhrMAKpbU2gDLZv9vMlNALTRgrM/taJ8TpTEO3+zgbHJxoiJ+ClEKpHTzO M/Ik+OI7PmDFcgWfth1346k46vrntSaiJKHsRraKkbDis+GHlqBlsqh3ZRwMP98j2q0R E1/j95GKXWWyV9wSr8ddiFT6i/b0gO+EFwwd6WXgoKOn53yqjAfKgw4/m3ZINaFZU0oT DUow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533LmffcvOBVkxhImiFhe8yrqRy+hZ2jcL4r2Flmyo0N8fL7eord BPQAVDsnfdo0Pa0Rh+BB6pkXkWh2XxbZarwhPbw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxSQzb6lwpRi+VQcpGRi4kaEHtb00k6C56gz3h4jJ9YUqC+ORSQXiREeEIHbl35sL1dzfH0vqFsWF10n19HWOg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2b05:: with SMTP id r5mr3208252ybr.465.1623900670558; Wed, 16 Jun 2021 20:31:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6do5xN2g5LPnFeM55iJ-4C4MyXOu_KeXxy68Xt4dJQMhi3LJ8ZrLICmEUlh8JGfDmsDG12m1JDAh0e0huwK_MlyKpdfn22ru3zsm7lYLfBo=@protonmail.com> <30li5MRxkBhzLxLmzRnHkCdn8n3Feqegi-FLZ5VDyIX2uRJfq4kVtrsLxw6dUtsM1atYV25IfIfDaQp4s2Dn2vc8LvYkhbAsn0v_Fwjerpw=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Cloud Strife Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 23:31:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: James MacWhyte , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009e856905c4edd64a" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 20:14:21 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 03:31:14 -0000 --0000000000009e856905c4edd64a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for hardware and energy is permissionless and exist all over the universe, permissionless cost which exists for everyone no matter who because it's unforgeable. Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner of a token for you to have it via transfer or sale, both choices they never have to make since there are no continuous costs with producing blocks forcing it. A permission is an infinitely high barrier to entry if the previous owner, like the premining party, refuses to give up the token they control. You're skipping the part where you depend on a permission of a central party in control of the authority token before you can produce blocks on your rasberry Pi. Proof of stake is not in any possible way relevant to permissionless protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to decentralized protocols where control must be distributed to independent (i.e. permissionless) parties. There's nothing of relevance to discuss and this has been figured out long long ago. https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > @Lloyd wrote: > > Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys online >> so in Alogorand you can authorize a set of "participation keys"[1] that >> will be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's behalf. >> Hopefully you've spotted the problem. >> You can send your participation keys to any malicious party with a nice >> website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return. >> Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace! >> > > I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you want > to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it to work, > and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can join a > mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purposes. Or > you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some "cloud mining" > scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised return. So as > you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well! > > The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own > validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have > the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-prone, amateur > way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the > professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a > web connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW. > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --0000000000009e856905c4edd64a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for har= dware and energy is permissionless and exist all over the universe, permiss= ionless=C2=A0cost which exists for everyone no matter who because it's = unforgeable.

Barrier to entry in PoS is being given perm= ission by the previous owner of a token for you to have it via transfer or = sale, both choices they never have to make since there are no continuous=C2= =A0costs with producing blocks forcing it. A permission is an infinitely hi= gh barrier to entry if the previous owner, like the premining party, refuse= s to give up the token they control.

You're sk= ipping the part where you depend on a permission of a central party in cont= rol of the authority token before you can produce blocks on your rasberry= =C2=A0Pi.

Proof of stake is not in any possible wa= y relevant to permissionless protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to d= ecentralized protocols where control must be distributed to independent (i.= e. permissionless) parties.


On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev &= lt;bitcoin-dev@lis= ts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

<= div>
@Lloyd wrote:

Of course in reality no one wa= nts to keep their coin holding keys online so in Alogorand you can authoriz= e a set of "participation keys"[1] that will be used to create bl= ocks on your coin holding key's behalf.
Hopefully you've spotted= the problem.
You can send your participation keys to any malicious part= y with a nice website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return.<= br>Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace!
I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If= you want to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it = to work, and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can = join a mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purpos= es. Or you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some "clo= ud mining" scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised = return. So as you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well!

The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is settin= g up your own validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both Po= W and PoS have the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-= prone, amateur way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the p= rofessional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a we= b connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW.
<= /div> _______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--0000000000009e856905c4edd64a--