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[2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-3a095a3dbddsi11466f8f.1.2025.05.01.11.23.55 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 May 2025 11:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of agustin.cruz@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::129 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::129; Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-54298ec925bso1462256e87.3 for ; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWpMtrlF9qfNd9UzCoWC8lJvB5wf2xKFU8zlBIG246HlNBbtMVwOOtXRcOduIDtruAWGf8J7AGkZVEY@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuyrxpAR39tNyPvwxOQbQ9NVww+hu829Pjk2LxI5UdxYk3T96xLXXgQVEeGwOv Mc5VAyd7Sg5fwDnE2hwa2r5XRt1+P9k2+d6XWjzdqWEKuBQVlu48X16Fr+kh9zA8qOcFVZE/8oi oMnSSHkJWZ6jEWNYxiTIMA5ge6bY5u7MfesH0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3a8c:b0:545:f0a:bf50 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-54ea76623b6mr1018629e87.35.1746123834476; Thu, 01 May 2025 11:23:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Agustin Cruz Date: Thu, 1 May 2025 14:23:21 -0400 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUEr6IoBjrTS6jhWsiQoVtuo_4XNWAeaxqISdEZMXcU5izU7CuNNGSdjWCo Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Introducing Hourglass To: Nagaev Boris Cc: Michael Tidwell , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3524906341722ca" X-Original-Sender: agustin.cruz@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=KPffgsbu; spf=pass (google.com: domain of agustin.cruz@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=agustin.cruz@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000e3524906341722ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, Boris=E2=80=99 point about a quantum capable attacker simply broadcasting a= nd self mining at the same time is exactly the scenario that pushed me toward the QRAMP idea in the first place. Rather than trying to chase a well funded adversary around the mempool, QRAMP proposal says: let=E2=80=99s set a firm deadline and make every unspent P2PK output move to a quantum safe address before it arrives. Once the block height or a date passes, anything that stayed behind just stops being spendable. Holders who migrate on time keep full control; coins that don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burned= or otherwise invalidated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for an = attacker to sign. Regards, Agust=C3=ADn On Thu, May 1, 2025 at 2:07=E2=80=AFPM Nagaev Boris wro= te: > On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwell > wrote: > > - 2. Single Entity rush spends: > > A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the > UTXOs while having their first mover competitive edge. They either > broadcast to the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This > creates potential miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring the > QC entity to raise fees and incentivize miners before their competitive > advantage expires and others catch up. > > > [...] > > > > - 4. Patient Miner: > > A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with = a > miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in their o= wn > blocks to maximize long-term profits. > > IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or > partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the > transaction publicly. If it doesn't broadcast, then it can only > capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their > hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time, > there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction > into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in > addition to mine themselves. > > Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and > for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can > continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If > they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature > for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked > UTXOs and take them one by one... > > -- > Best regards, > Boris Nagaev > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAFC_Vt6c_DwmpCzNVCRWzz9E2AG= n0PpkZzLeYeGNE1tYbUzyOA%40mail.gmail.com > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAJDmzYyAb4GT%2BrdpF8ndAcFrFziQyO%3DQpA36m1T8gw0LTLLg-g%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000e3524906341722ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone,
Boris=E2=80=99 point abou= t a quantum capable attacker simply broadcasting and self mining at the sam= e time is exactly the scenario that pushed me toward the QRAMP idea in the = first place. Rather than trying to chase a well funded adversary around the= mempool, QRAMP proposal says: let=E2=80=99s set a firm deadline and make e= very unspent P2PK output move to a quantum safe address before it arrives. = Once the block height or a date passes, anything that stayed behind just st= ops being spendable. Holders who migrate on time keep full control; coins t= hat don=E2=80=99t make the jump are effectively burned or otherwise invalid= ated by consensus, so there=E2=80=99s nothing left for an attacker to sign.=

Regards,
Agust=C3=ADn

On Thu, May 1, 2025 a= t 2:07=E2=80=AFPM Nagaev Boris <bna= gaev@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 12:26=E2=80=AFAM Michael Tidwell <= michael@tidwell.io<= /a>> wrote:
> - 2. Single Entity rush spends:
> A single entity generates QC signatures and tries to rapidly flip the = UTXOs while having their first mover competitive edge. They either broadcas= t to the mempool, partner with miners, or mine directly. This creates poten= tial miner collusion if P2PK fees remain low, pressuring the QC entity to r= aise fees and incentivize miners before their competitive advantage expires= and others catch up.
>
[...]
>
> - 4. Patient Miner:
> A single QC capable entity, also operating as a miner or partners with= a miner, chooses to be patient, including P2PK transactions only in their = own blocks to maximize long-term profits.

IMHO for a single QC capable entity even if it mines itself or
partners with a miner, it would make sense to broadcast the
transaction publicly. If it doesn't broadcast, then it can only
capture one UTXO when it mines a block - rarely, depending on their
hashrate share. If it mines itself and broadcasts at the same time,
there is a possibility that another miner includes the transaction
into a block. So a rational QC capable entity would broadcast in
addition to mine themselves.

Also it would make sense to use different UTXOs for broadcasting and
for self mining: if another miner mines one UTXO, the QC entity can
continue mining another UTXO trying to mine the next block with it. If
they use the same UTXO, they would have to quickly make a signature
for a fresh UTXO for their own block. Or just have a pool of attacked
UTXOs and take them one by one...

--
Best regards,
Boris Nagaev

--
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