From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YqkXX-0000zi-K2 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 08 May 2015 15:50:15 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com designates 209.85.214.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.171; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; helo=mail-ob0-f171.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f171.google.com ([209.85.214.171]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YqkXW-0000Ym-Ev for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 08 May 2015 15:50:15 +0000 Received: by obblk2 with SMTP id lk2so58429421obb.0 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 08:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=OpBNPBVeYjOrZ3hNCEU8m2aRuyB15S2bogKaUHoNnHs=; b=XINeZFx3q5X/n8EH+oDKHcr/fcxVtEgzL1RoEiJ72vkcCE9mypAFgkwO0bqbWl0fur 10XpfANrxYio6RpIaP/Y5KjoygoAoxjxhfaVfRWC7SpAt+akgqfLoHHGUzQZKcNMLbnb 4roh9rW3/exTdldPypkHKJZpJQhDXmeBVDCQ7qOPAn5O25UFxNKuRJ3EQ7m7Kot6wfCp AUzv0dmjqVRdX3wDvuOINDTiOi40nOOVgDwaPHqWojoh2Xgb+uG3CinjTLTKmSZNZjrZ Z7CPcvqZukJ84wzwZ3J92IhCYaB9z3qF4cbDrxOrJEafDirlAT4V6thClTPWKXnh8pha a23w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnj2h++UdhtrTX5ypPCmKBxt0aqMSfbVtJS/5lOI7EeMemYrLTkkzuslNG+lDEgP9DPMOXo X-Received: by 10.60.199.10 with SMTP id jg10mr3647629oec.54.1431100208774; Fri, 08 May 2015 08:50:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.108.149 with HTTP; Fri, 8 May 2015 08:49:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <554CCF56.3000604@gmail.com> References: <554A91BE.6060105@bluematt.me> <554BA032.4040405@bluematt.me> <554BBDA2.7040508@gmail.com> <554CCF56.3000604@gmail.com> From: Jeff Garzik Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:49:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alan Reiner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c203a8951850051593fbb0 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.0 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1YqkXW-0000Ym-Ev Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 15:50:15 -0000 --001a11c203a8951850051593fbb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Alan Reiner wrote: > > This isn't about "everyone's coffee". This is about an absolute minimum > amount of participation by people who wish to use the network. If our > goal is really for bitcoin to really be a global, open transaction network > that makes money fluid, then 7tps is already a failure. If even 5% of the > world (350M people) was using the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to > open payment channels, or shift money between side chains), we'll be above > 100 tps. And that doesn't include all the non-individuals (organizations) > that want to use it. > > The goals of "a global transaction network" and "everyone must be able to > run a full node with their $200 dell laptop" are not compatible. We need > to accept that a global transaction system cannot be fully/constantly > audited by everyone and their mother. The important feature of the network > is that it is open and anyone *can* get the history and verify it. But not > everyone is required to. Trying to promote a system where the history can > be forever handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach, even > with our miniscule 7 tps. Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the > capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments system > > To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tps is too low" Never was it said that bit Therefore a reply arguing against the low end is nonsense, and the relevant question remains on the table. How high do you want to go - and can Layer 1 bitcoin really scale to get there? It is highly disappointing to see people endorse "moar bitcoin volume!" with zero thinking behind that besides "adoption!" Need to actually project what bitcoin looks like at the desired levels, what network resources are required to get to those levels -- including traffic to serve those SPV clients via P2P -- and then work backwards from that to see who can support it, and then work backwards to discern a maximum tps. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ --001a11c203a8951850051593fbb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, May 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

This isn't about "everyone's coffee".=C2=A0 This is a= bout an absolute minimum amount of participation by people who wish to use the network.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If our goal is really for bitcoin to really be a g= lobal, open transaction network that makes money fluid, then 7tps is already a failure.=C2=A0 If even 5% of the world (350M people) was usin= g the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to open payment channels, or shift money between side chains), we'll be above 100 tps.=C2=A0 And= that doesn't include all the non-individuals (organizations) that want t= o use it.

The goals of "a global transaction network" and "everyon= e must be able to run a full node with their $200 dell laptop" are not compatible.=C2=A0 We need to accept that a global transaction system cannot be fully/constantly audited by everyone and their mother.=C2=A0 The important feature of the network is that it is open and anyone *can* get the history and verify it.=C2=A0 But not everyone is required to.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Trying to promote a system where the history can be for= ever handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach, even with our miniscule 7 tps.=C2=A0 Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments system


To repeat, the very first po= int in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tps is too low"=C2=A0 Ne= ver was it said that bit

Therefore a reply arguing agains= t the low end is nonsense, and the relevant question remains on the table.<= br>
How high do you want to go - and can Layer 1 bitcoin real= ly scale to get there?

It is highly disappointing to see= people endorse "moar bitcoin volume!" with zero thinking behind = that besides "adoption!"=C2=A0 Need to actually project what bitc= oin looks like at the desired levels, what network resources are required t= o get to those levels -- including traffic to serve those SPV clients via P= 2P -- and then work backwards from that to see who can support it, and then= work backwards to discern a maximum tps.

--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open so= urce evangelist
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bitpay.com/
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