From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WJoZI-00028n-RF for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:23:24 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; helo=mail-we0-f173.google.com; Received: from mail-we0-f173.google.com ([74.125.82.173]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WJoZH-0005tD-Nh for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:23:24 +0000 Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id w61so1633166wes.4 for ; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:23:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=yDTWPHSgizM/cqCZE8JMsdaoNQ0RAPgeGRlhN1O+CJ4=; b=Z+qhMwZ8G5+KbFDP+2PXO0aEtIp4Gt9P7T2nkyDQSxoPnhD+VM/pVVG6NdXtXmUWio Laown6VS4HGSWdb+kdLThlpQ2XFAVZ16MyO0bxQ8Kh4IAwmhm2wF9uaruZgyBcoBm4Qh Kz42Wnzt+K+ijYeMPWxao+LpgZ8DNkmRG1Bysvhfrcuvc/m9JvzRyPsUex+TaaEmMVxD OctrVUa6N0+poEgAzFWxk247YS71kwjNoB4HX1dtpohIwO6VMPYCiUI35paOgz6nf2GA QFJ/xcwK+FtjMiCJoWbxEsxhMXys54ElzFy/970Z+GqfpaLFA7Cm5wqWR2Etwe5Zuu3x JBiA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkFtbuqmNu30SMgUlPgsFZwIDBByQTv3hdb5foNfdNumacd3+sqwjKe2zDYmoe0LFlx4Tl5 X-Received: by 10.194.119.168 with SMTP id kv8mr8159384wjb.41.1393698197454; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:23:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.82.197 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:22:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140301174513.GP3180@nl.grid.coop> References: <20140209180458.GB20126@savin> <20140209204434.GA11488@savin> <20140210193247.GC17359@savin> <20140211175919.GV3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140214052159.GF31437@savin> <20140217054751.GY3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140228013719.GA5786@savin> <20140301174513.GP3180@nl.grid.coop> From: Jeff Garzik Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:22:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: Troy Benjegerdes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WJoZH-0005tD-Nh Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with honest pricing and market depth X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:23:25 -0000 This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list. On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know... >> > >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data >> > they're trying to publish has to be public. >> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy... >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel >> networks. >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they >> work just well. > > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals, > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make. > > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1 > > >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery, but >> >> trade itself. >> >> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for historic >> >> bid and asks, etc. >> > >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without >> > proof-of-publication you just don't. >> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred. >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee, >> for that matter. > > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably. > >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell. >> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as it >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid. > > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, fertilizer, > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the exchange. > > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data' as > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough price, > and I know who I'm dealing with. > > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market data > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without actually > doing some usefull market function. > > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye for > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our orders > in and relieve some speculators of their money. > > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the > accurate historic data problem later. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' hozer@hozed.org > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul grid.coop > > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/