public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with honest pricing and market depth
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:33:25 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0Ocs5foyROiVgB=xOj1CvE9fpKm8YJweWOYDuUzFw47+w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CACh7GpH2YDr2LBgnoxmNSwrufryzYwXkuo6uTk3-reRGCx6t8w@mail.gmail.com>

This is not bitcoin-philosophy, it's bitcoin-development.  Existential
philosophy belongs on IRC or the forums.


On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> wrote:
> Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.
>
> On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote:
>> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know...
>> >> >
>> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil
>> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data
>> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
>> >>
>> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
>> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price
>> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel
>> >> networks.
>> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they
>> >> work just well.
>> >
>> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,
>> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are
>> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
>> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
>> >
>> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at
>> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There
>> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the
>> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
>> >
>> > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1
>> >
>> >
>> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on
>> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> trade itself.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some
>> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for
>> >> >> historic
>> >> >> bid and asks, etc.
>> >> >
>> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without
>> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
>> >>
>> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
>> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just
>> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee,
>> >> for that matter.
>> >
>> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own
>> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
>> >
>> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate
>> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
>> >>
>> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a
>> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as
>> >> > it
>> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
>> >
>> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate
>> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85,
>> > fertilizer,
>> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the
>> > exchange.
>> >
>> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data'
>> > as
>> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough
>> > price,
>> > and I know who I'm dealing with.
>> >
>> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and
>> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market
>> > data
>> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without
>> > actually
>> > doing some usefull market function.
>> >
>> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye
>> > for
>> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our
>> > orders
>> > in and relieve some speculators of their money.
>> >
>> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the
>> > accurate historic data problem later.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'
>> > hozer@hozed.org
>> > 7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
>> > grid.coop
>> >
>> >       Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
>> >          nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
>> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
>> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
>> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>> >
>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
>> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
>> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
>> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/



  reply	other threads:[~2014-03-01 18:33 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-02-09 18:04 [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with honest pricing and market depth Peter Todd
2014-02-09 20:44 ` Peter Todd
2014-02-10 19:32   ` Peter Todd
2014-02-11 17:59     ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-02-14  5:21       ` Peter Todd
2014-02-17  5:47         ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-02-27 23:48           ` Jorge Timón
2014-02-28  1:37             ` Peter Todd
2014-02-28 17:49               ` Jorge Timón
2014-03-01 17:45                 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-01 18:22                   ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-01 18:28                     ` Mark Friedenbach
2014-03-01 18:33                       ` Jeff Garzik [this message]
2014-03-02 18:08                         ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-02 19:03                           ` Jorge Timón
2014-02-12 16:34 ` Dan Carter
2014-02-14  5:20   ` Peter Todd

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CAJHLa0Ocs5foyROiVgB=xOj1CvE9fpKm8YJweWOYDuUzFw47+w@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=jgarzik@bitpay.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net \
    --cc=mark@monetize.io \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox