From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YqXju-0000AI-47 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 08 May 2015 02:10:10 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; helo=mail-ob0-f177.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f177.google.com ([209.85.214.177]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YqXjs-0002Cq-Qf for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 08 May 2015 02:10:10 +0000 Received: by obblk2 with SMTP id lk2so45845831obb.0 for ; Thu, 07 May 2015 19:10:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=OkfJZS50jWolDWdMhYeZfXeEqq2p0qedeSekg/jFEAw=; b=SQBB60HqjQ9xGTwngdGwwqYlMGSAjqXE/h/TSPB0Vivaow+bJOPAo+zBQo/nS6L2n4 62WLhctRUvbWgi/masjv+M0G+cjnAPMhhOggttrJ4yzFq8pj9msSp6R+uU0oV1Z/ODSP KwiaEjc0wPkHu9w0M3e6aEgajzfbl+Zv4bdk2b4PEpywaIy+5eEMolweFj4PwruuEvAg eyAQdPrYahpOiDH7MJt16HwktJ0sYlAcG+2MrGQHsXJCF9IFJl/Tx+QjXUWJc0TwMtej 4gcHrM9hAIT3TEqMq69Dz6UaI/HFbQXNyQWj2W69LixdvX2aCkm9pEO1IngiQ6H/2Nmt 6kOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQllpl6VT2uqu+SI7+K8oySF3NQtLgHVQTXwpDZjoAESlpkrkifoMY8JDqAcaG9k29ri/2NC X-Received: by 10.182.60.202 with SMTP id j10mr1271891obr.35.1431051003313; Thu, 07 May 2015 19:10:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.108.149 with HTTP; Thu, 7 May 2015 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <554C1410.7050406@thinlink.com> References: <554A91BE.6060105@bluematt.me> <554BA032.4040405@bluematt.me> <554BBDA2.7040508@gmail.com> <554C1410.7050406@thinlink.com> From: Jeff Garzik Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 22:09:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Tom Harding Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160cf38b55efd0515888653 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.1 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1YqXjs-0002Cq-Qf Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 02:10:10 -0000 --089e0160cf38b55efd0515888653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Tom Harding wrote: > On 5/7/2015 12:54 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote: > > 2) Where do you want to go? Should bitcoin scale up to handle all the > > world's coffees? > > Alan was very clear. Right now, he wants to go exactly where Gavin's > concrete proposal suggests. > G proposed 20MB blocks, AFAIK - 140 tps A proposed 100MB blocks - 700 tps For ref, Paypal is around 115 tps VISA is around 2000 tps (perhaps 4000 tps peak) I ask again: where do we want to go? This is the existential question behind block size. Are we trying to build a system that can handle Paypal volumes? VISA volumes? It's not a snarky or sarcastic question: Are we building a system to handle all the world's coffees? Is bitcoin's main chain and network - Layer 1 - going to receive direct connections from 500m mobile phones, broadcasting transactions? We must answer these questions to inform the change being discussed today, in order to decide what makes the most sense as a new limit. Any responsible project of this magnitude must have a better story than "zomg 1MB, therefore I picked 20MB out of a hat" Must be able to answer /why/ the new limit was picked. As G notes, changing the block size is simply kicking the can down the road: http://gavinandresen.ninja/it-must-be-done-but-is-not-a-panacea Necessarily one must ask, today, what happens when we get to the end of that newly paved road. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ --089e0160cf38b55efd0515888653 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, May 7, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Tom Harding <tomh@thinlink.com> = wrote:
On 5/7/2015 12:54 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> 2) Where do you want to go?=C2=A0 Should bitco= in scale up to handle all the
> world's coffees?

Alan was very clear.=C2=A0 Right now, he wants to go exactly where G= avin's
concrete proposal suggests.

G proposed 20MB blocks, AFAIK - 140 tps
A proposed 100MB blocks - 700 tps
For ref,
Paypal is around 115 t= ps
VISA is around 2000 tps (perhaps 400= 0 tps peak)

I ask again:=C2=A0 wher= e do we want to go?=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is the existential question behind blo= ck size.

Are we trying to build a s= ystem that can handle Paypal volumes?=C2=A0 VISA volumes?

It's not a snarky or sarcastic question:=C2=A0 A= re we building a system to handle all the world's coffees?=C2=A0 Is bit= coin's main chain and network - Layer 1 - going to receive direct conne= ctions from 500m mobile phones, broadcasting transactions?

We must answer these questions to inform the change= being discussed today, in order to decide what makes the most sense as a n= ew limit.=C2=A0 Any responsible project of this magnitude must have a bette= r story than "zomg 1MB, therefore I picked 20MB out of a hat"=C2= =A0 Must be able to answer /why/ the new limit was picked.

As G notes, changing the block size is simply kicki= ng the can down the road: http://gavinandresen.ninja/it-must-be-done-but-i= s-not-a-panacea=C2=A0=C2=A0 Necessarily one must ask, today, what happe= ns when we get to the end of that newly paved road.

--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangeli= st
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bitpay.com/
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