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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5614622812f47-3db563e9e40si47137b6e.4.2024.08.01.18.20.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Aug 2024 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jaejoon@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36; Received: by mail-oo1-xc36.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5d5bb2ac2ddso1347481eaf.0 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2024 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWcnoIKMVZg8SOEC8h0GjNmjyR9i22fBWYAVEPA3jAVtIO7NeWiNCtBZ1wHE+iHhlwkPG4rWKShyuhttB0xmYS5uwweQ+nlKSyqh9Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:2281:b0:5d6:510:6acd with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5d6c8143f93mr972514eaf.2.1722561603348; Thu, 01 Aug 2024 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-7549b5e885e7n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jimmy Song Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2024 21:19:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] HODL Tax Proposal To: Keagan McClelland Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Jos=C3=A9_Edil_Guimar=C3=A3es_de_Medeiros?= , Richard Greaser , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078af8f061ea920d5" X-Original-Sender: jaejoon@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=HVZlaIik; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jaejoon@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c36 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jaejoon@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000078af8f061ea920d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a satirical "news" site. He's trolling the list. On Thu, Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland wrote: > Hypothetically miners could attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherei= n > they consider the age of the utxo being spent and factor that into the > feerate they consider when accepting the transaction into their block > template. However this would be an opt-in mechanism and miners can choose > to not take this into consideration when making the choice to mine the > transaction or not. If enough hashpower adopted this policy, you could en= d > up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This also means that you can do this > without a consensus fork if there was appetite for it. > > However, I suspect there will be extreme resistance to this proposal and > it is unlikely that miners would intentionally leave otherwise-good fees = on > the table simply because they want to play prisoners dilemma games where > they lose fees to the competition. > > Keags > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Edil Guimar=C3=A3es de M= edeiros < > jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Not sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin >> thing, but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted = to >> stress the concept. >> >> Since the value "tokens" in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from >> transactions that have not been spent in another transaction, and since = the >> sole purpose of the utxos are to atomically serve as input to a subseque= nt >> transaction, how do you proposed to "tax" them? >> >> I mean, let's say someone sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simpl= e >> p2pkh transaction with the address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean t= o >> authorize it as an input to a new transaction. In principle, that can on= ly >> be done by me producing a valid signature using a private key. >> >> Let's say I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax >> to be implemented? >> >> All the best. >> -- >> E... >> >> On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser >> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFHi everyone, >> >> It has become apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the >> network holding their coins, are not adding value to the network. >> >> As miners continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit >> tremendously from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move the= ir >> coins, providing increased security to the network. >> >> I have written out a proposal more in depth and is attached below. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/6512db18-bd15-462e-92fd-754= 9b5e885e7n%40googlegroups.com >> >> . >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/C7829BDC-1273-49C9-BE03-F00= 823A94C3D%40gmail.com >> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALeFGL2ngsRd3N%2B8L7u9ZLNQB= 084xqcMZ04Dp3J53CEBHBxQcg%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/CAJR7vkqSLkLDv%2By8D%2BaFC4pFDbtSmfrppyd5gMqG9fK_QTu6rw%40mail.g= mail.com. --00000000000078af8f061ea920d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For those that haven't figured this out yet, the name on= the original proposal (Dick Greaser) is the editor or the Bitcoin Bugle, a= satirical "news" site. He's trolling the list.


On Thu= , Aug 1, 2024, 8:57=E2=80=AFPM Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com> wrote:
Hypothetically miners cou= ld attempt to adopt a mining/relay policy wherein they consider the age of = the utxo being spent and factor that into the feerate they consider when ac= cepting the transaction into their block template. However this would be an= opt-in mechanism and miners can choose to not take this into consideration= when making the choice to mine the transaction or not. If enough hashpower= adopted this policy, you could end up with a de-facto demurrage tax. This = also means that you can do this without a consensus fork if there was appet= ite for it.

However, I suspect there will be extreme res= istance to this proposal and it is unlikely that miners would intentionally= leave otherwise-good fees on the table simply because they want to play pr= isoners dilemma games where they lose fees to the competition.
Keags

On Thu, Aug 1, 2024 at 5:18=E2=80=AFPM Jos=C3=A9 Ed= il Guimar=C3=A3es de Medeiros <jose.edil@gmail.com> wrote:
Not= sure if I should consider this a joke after the president of bitcoin thing= , but I just got curious about a basic technical detail and wanted to stres= s the concept.=C2=A0

Since the value "tokens" = in Bitcoin are the utxos, outputs from transactions that have not been spen= t in another transaction, and since the sole purpose of the utxos are to at= omically serve as input to a subsequent transaction, how do you proposed to= "tax" them?

I mean, let's say someo= ne sent me 1 BTC to address X by building a simple p2pkh transaction with t= he address I provided. To move that 1 BTC mean to authorize it as an input = to a new transaction. In principle, that can only be done by me producing a= valid signature using a private key.

Let's sa= y I'm one of those infamous holders. How do you propose the tax to be i= mplemented?

All the best.=C2=A0
--
E...

On 1 Aug 2024, at 18:13, Richard Greaser <thebitcoinbugle@gma= il.com> wrote:

<= div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BFHi everyone,=C2=A0

It has becom= e apparent to me that there is an issue where users of the network holding = their coins, are not adding value to the network.

As min= ers continue to get squeezed post halving, they would benefit tremendously = from fees being taken from individuals refusing to move their coins, provid= ing increased security to the network.=C2=A0

I have written out a pr= oposal more in depth and is attached below.=C2=A0

--
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<hodltax.md>

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