From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Vh555-0006Oj-5X for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:08:07 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; envelope-from=allen.piscitello@gmail.com; helo=mail-we0-f179.google.com; Received: from mail-we0-f179.google.com ([74.125.82.179]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Vh553-0008QH-2x for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:08:07 +0000 Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q59so659936wes.24 for ; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:07:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.11.38 with SMTP id n6mr4182811wjb.25.1384466878891; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.190.133 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:07:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <528547FD.2070300@gmail.com> References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> <528547FD.2070300@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:07:58 -0600 Message-ID: From: Allen Piscitello To: Alan Reiner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d5710850d4304eb2a5097 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: doubleclick.net] -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (allen.piscitello[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1Vh553-0008QH-2x Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:08:07 -0000 --047d7b5d5710850d4304eb2a5097 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC or MBTC (.0000005 MBTC fee? how cheap!). On a more serious note, the transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once rather than twice. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the > smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are > 500 uBTC. It's not a deal breaker, it's just something that needs to be > taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is one of > the reasons we would make such a change in the first place). > > "Holy crap these fees are huge! I thought Bitcoin didn't have fees!" > > > > On 11/14/2013 04:55 PM, Allen Piscitello wrote: > > I also would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the "standard wallet > unit". It works out perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units. > Something that costs $10USD would be 25000uBTC. This isn't a problem for a > place like South Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even > off on a scale of usable currencies in major economies. > > > > The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in > lost coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price (uBTC > are worthless!). On the other hand, it also might help people feel like > they are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000 uBTC!), and > reduce the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have heard several > people worry that 21 million is not enough units). > > > > Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will also be helpful > to solving the confusion issue. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach > wrote: > > > > For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to > uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to > the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new > national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale > everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very > many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long > term perspective. > > Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once. > > Mark > > On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the > > base unit in such an established system. There is no easy way to > > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth... > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native > Apps > > OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access > > Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP > server. > > Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and > Native! > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps > > OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access > > Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. > > Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps > OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access > Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. > Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --047d7b5d5710850d4304eb2a5097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and tradi= ng rates as BTC or MBTC (.0000005 MBTC fee? how cheap!). =A0On a more serio= us note, the transition should definitely be thought out well as it could b= e very damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only on= ce rather than twice.


On Thu, Nov 1= 4, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrot= e:
=20 =20 =20
Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are 500 uBTC.=A0=A0=A0 It's not a deal breaker, it's just somet= hing that needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is one of the reasons we would make such a change in the first place).=A0

"Holy crap these fees are huge!=A0 I thought Bitcoin didn't ha= ve fees!"



On 11/14/2013 04:55 PM, Allen Piscitello wrote:
> I als= o would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the "standard wallet unit".=A0=A0=A0 It= works out perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units.=A0 Something th= at costs $10USD would be 25000uBTC.=A0 This isn't a problem for a pl= ace like South Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even off on a scale of usable currencies in major economies.
>
> The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in lost coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price (uBTC are worthless!).=A0 On the other hand, it also might help people feel like they are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000 uBTC!), and reduce the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have heard several people worry that 21 million is not enough units).
>
> Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will als= o be helpful to solving the confusion issue.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@moneti= ze.io <mailto:= mark@monetize.io>> wrote:
>

For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale<= br> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~=3D $0.01 currently. And I don't thi= nk very
many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
term perspective.

Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.

Mark

On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard = to change the
> base unit in such an established system.=A0 There is no easy way to
> do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's wort= h...
>

>=A0=A0=A0=A0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services = for HTML5 & Native Apps
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Free app hosting. Or install the open source package= on any LAMP server.
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Senc= ha Touch and Native!
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 _______________________________________________
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Bitcoin-development mailing list
>=A0=A0=A0=A0 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> >=A0=A0=A0=A0 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitc= oin-development

>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitc= oin-development




-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
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OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D63469471&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
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