public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
To: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill.com>,
	 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2022 10:45:44 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAJowKg+Lp6NBm-H9_Gr6Zoj=-NCFVwpGZoqVOWhAkkw5TDwjYA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABZBVTCgiQFtxEyeOU=-SGDQUDthyy7sOgPwiT+OVi35LVivyA@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1482 bytes --]

> Currently Lightning is somewhere around 15% of our total bitcoin
payments. This is very much not nothing, and all of us here want Lightning
to grow, but I think it warrants a serious discussion on whether we want
Lightning adoption to go to 100% by means of disabling on-chain commerce.

Is this about disabling "on-chain instant commerce"?

 - Waiting for confirmation on-chain before shipping a product won't
change, normally it's 15 minutes or so.  This doesn't change that.

 - An easy way to cancel/rbf a transaction doesn't exist - like you said,
there's no UX for this now, and I don't anticipate one being broadly used
except by inter-exchange transfers, etc.

So what does this change?

 - In the rare event that an RBF transaction is received where the fee
level means confirmation times will be slow a merchant will have to wait
very long for at least 1 confirmation, the merchant should alert the user
that the transaction may take longer than the BTC FX rate guarantee window,
and may require additional funds if FX rates change.

 - Users with wallets that support RBF can now be encouraged to accelerate
the tx, with help and advice depending on their wallet, in order to lock in
the FX rates

 - 0 conf is still viable strategy for releasing an order, as long as fees
are very high, and it's very likely to be included in the next block.
 More fee analysis is needed to validate 0 conf and mitigate risks, but now
it is, at least, more "honest" to the true risks.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1736 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2022-10-19 14:46 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
2022-10-19 14:29 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-19 14:45   ` Erik Aronesty [this message]
2022-10-19 15:43   ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-10-19 15:51     ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-19 16:04     ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-19 16:08       ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-20  1:37   ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-20 14:11     ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21  1:04       ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-20  4:05   ` Peter Todd
2022-10-21 19:35     ` Peter Todd
2022-10-20  7:22   ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-20 12:37     ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 14:14       ` Ruben Somsen
2022-10-20 14:17         ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 19:58       ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-20 21:05         ` David A. Harding
2022-10-20 21:07         ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-20 22:02           ` Eloy
2022-10-21 12:02           ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 14:01             ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-21 14:19               ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 14:47                 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-21 19:43             ` Peter Todd
2022-10-24  7:55               ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 22:13         ` Peter Todd
2022-10-21  9:34           ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 19:33             ` Peter Todd
2022-10-24  7:45               ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 11:56         ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-23 19:20   ` David A. Harding
2022-10-23 20:51     ` alicexbt
     [not found] <6342098B-A548-43C9-8F92-AAD9D0BB66AB@coinspaid.com>
2022-12-03 14:06 ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-01 12:27 Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-01 22:03 ` Erik Aronesty
2022-12-02  6:34   ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-02  1:52 ` Antoine Riard
2022-12-02  6:59   ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-02  4:30 ` Peter Todd
2022-12-02  7:06   ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03  8:50     ` Peter Todd
2022-12-03 11:01       ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03 11:51         ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03 12:12         ` Peter Todd
2022-12-03 13:17           ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-03 14:03             ` Daniel Lipshitz
2022-12-05 12:21               ` angus
     [not found] <mailman.7.1665662404.16405.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
2022-10-14 10:03 ` John Carvalho
2022-10-14 15:04   ` Peter Todd
2022-10-14 16:28     ` Erik Aronesty
2022-10-15  4:08       ` John Carvalho
2022-10-15  4:20     ` John Carvalho
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-10-07 16:20 Dario Sneidermanis
2022-10-07 17:21 ` David A. Harding
2022-10-07 17:28   ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-07 21:37   ` Dario Sneidermanis
2022-10-11 16:18     ` Pieter Wuille
2022-10-12  5:42     ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-12 16:11       ` Pieter Wuille
2022-10-12 21:44         ` Dario Sneidermanis
2022-10-13  4:35         ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-16  8:08           ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-17 14:25             ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-17 21:41             ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-18  7:00               ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-19  3:01                 ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-19  3:17                 ` alicexbt
2022-10-20 22:08                   ` Peter Todd
2022-11-02 15:04                     ` AdamISZ
2022-10-20 23:18                 ` Peter Todd
2022-11-09 13:19                 ` ArmchairCryptologist
2022-11-10  9:35                   ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-10-07 20:56 ` Luke Dashjr
2022-10-08 20:47 ` alicexbt
2022-10-13 16:07 ` linuxfoundation.cndm1
2022-10-14  2:44   ` alicexbt
2022-10-14 15:02     ` Peter Todd
2022-10-17 20:31 ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-17 22:14 ` Antoine Riard

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CAJowKg+Lp6NBm-H9_Gr6Zoj=-NCFVwpGZoqVOWhAkkw5TDwjYA@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=erik@q32.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=sergej@bitrefill.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox