From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED19DC002D for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:29:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A4B6FA94 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:29:02 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org B3A4B6FA94 Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=rM7nuikL X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQUTEVlYGEPZ for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:29:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 730BA6FA03 Received: from mail-vk1-xa36.google.com (mail-vk1-xa36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a36]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 730BA6FA03 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:29:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk1-xa36.google.com with SMTP id s185so2533223vkb.0 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:29:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bBsB7klyIZjQOkrES6lwvIKTF+fmqcMYTFc0cb0h5Is=; b=rM7nuikLIbo9wjHNvUgVKeuCbFI7QC2MuVEzkui7Q2cjsvuyU8h6VAOve6bq3d2i8c h2JZfA94UWiUuZwVSvnb076DuGdTkft7DQiyERx2OA1JQ/n6HQVB3Yi+ugf4sPcN5TXD hG0pVJOvPD4A2bDhC63kXCBezLv1bWJB0D0i9uPa5SQfv83wAKUP8k8ly1e/3tmXZKee lznQmSNB1reLeihQWcsRrF/CgMeUrUhuwqdZ6Kpml8fUk2m+nEyz88I+nhV3TYnFG1LB 1eSMAHL58+L6Sv45PAunKmPgETBKcJ9rGQDDc9gJg6okEOsMEg3yJz4Y6SpIV6JsswmS KoAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=bBsB7klyIZjQOkrES6lwvIKTF+fmqcMYTFc0cb0h5Is=; b=LY5QYJn8S+tkbUUHZbfaAC30yUgDypEHrmyG2y8+75yYb8R1FE1Lz26RZmr1tddUca xOG2nGchslHySJSSRwUxVhwERSW2+aNcRuVnwWSSp2N9A2vJvvrddZEkrLf402f1HtPb DALgbBfM+2NStHwJhAJ05CjLPqShacxaumA/I16OlriqdEDua3SiKkdwN7EzQa6o91th Ftlxc69jDRZvp4CxLUkJ+zvSq+lnKUNJJSpIwnTQxY63n7dwrobDr1YR4CSZE9HnLe1k vFer5B5/TTbamidD+CxuFAL0vMszEwSKUpozscdHX+Q6oKEi8xOgqQ81Cns5dBCcrXsA resg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2St4A3phwDTZm/k0HNcue2Zi3WD8k1y22SZmXdlEaQ6NINlBGj gwnhTmBJQLh6Lwj70WkEbjyt/B1YLp43jYbfqoJklVY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7Ry3l6EGGSL4d5C/HuISZa3fBXdhU8toeYNUVYZJNDlb2iDfKATG6+ea1NOXCmW0FpzD8qbyDAiMoKPRji50o= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:5243:0:b0:3a4:a4e9:417c with SMTP id g64-20020a1f5243000000b003a4a4e9417cmr3071147vkb.16.1665764940095; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:29:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Erik Aronesty Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:28:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: Peter Todd , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000088a95e05eb011f67" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:12:18 +0000 Cc: John Carvalho Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:29:03 -0000 --00000000000088a95e05eb011f67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Also, lightning works fine and is readily available in convenient mobile apps used by millions of people, or in . So the need for a 0conf has been mitigated by other solutions for fast payments with no need for a trust relationship. And for people that don't like mobile risks, core lightning and other solutions are now easily installed and configured for use in fast payments. some references: https://muun.com/ (easy!) https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning (reference, works well with core) https://lightning.network/ (more info) On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 11:11 AM Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 12:03:21PM +0200, John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > In support of Dario's concern, I feel like there is a degree of > gaslighting > > happening with the advancement of RBF somehow being okay, while merchants > > wanting to manage their own 0conf risk better being not okay. > > The way merchants try to manage 0conf risk is quite harmful to Bitcoin. > Connecting to large numbers of nodes to try to risk-manage propagation > _is_ an > attack, albeit a mild one. Everyone doing that is very harmful; only a few > merchants being able to do it is very unfair/centralized. > > ...and of course, in the past this has lead to merchants trying to make > deals > with miners directly, even going as far as to suggest reorging out > double-spends. I don't need to explain why that is obviously extremely > harmful. > > -- > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --00000000000088a95e05eb011f67 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also, lightning works fine and is readily available in con= venient=C2=A0mobile apps used by millions of people, or in .=C2=A0 =C2=A0So= the need for a 0conf has been mitigated by other solutions for fast paymen= ts with no need for a trust relationship.=C2=A0 And for people that don'= ;t like mobile risks, core lightning and other solutions are now easily ins= talled and configured for use in fast payments.

some references:


On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 11= :11 AM Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 14, 20= 22 at 12:03:21PM +0200, John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> In support of Dario's concern, I feel like there is a degree of ga= slighting
> happening with the advancement of RBF somehow being okay, while mercha= nts
> wanting to manage their own 0conf risk better being not okay.

The way merchants try to manage 0conf risk is quite harmful to Bitcoin.
Connecting to large numbers of nodes to try to risk-manage propagation _is_= an
attack, albeit a mild one. Everyone doing that is very harmful; only a few<= br> merchants being able to do it is very unfair/centralized.

...and of course, in the past this has lead to merchants trying to make dea= ls
with miners directly, even going as far as to suggest reorging out
double-spends. I don't need to explain why that is obviously extremely = harmful.

--
http= s://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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