From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71BDC002D for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:50:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F7D4013A for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:50:09 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org A3F7D4013A Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=R+gXMR/G X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zcq831hrDWsv for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:50:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 55FD4403C8 Received: from mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55FD4403C8 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:50:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com with SMTP id 67so2675693vsv.2 for ; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=sqttsjUqy5aJrjVcN6F3qArdgZGovDPnX+W00SXYSNY=; b=R+gXMR/GyU0XMsYL/hSbZf5m7ouTb2ybFjlDkWAeUxIWlL7Tc3bvADaVmA4wVxjjyJ rxNRnIO2h0FVaJgNmQ3ieiaxil1EwkFg+dRCT0Tkf8hX1htr6oI3OWr889Vva59knvOu 09F4tSLZ0rBnjTPOto921wNxdGhrQJlnSaCZPyhQ4+iIRLoHjfhw7ty0F7hdcSwxODz6 SiIcxCgXuifr3r76SYnnbZkfuuam5pdf6I4ER9VGgDoIEsVey3P4ghXB2RyDHfuDAlGe YBqeDtNDgwwVryNOKegAAd7CUKC/Ik6tc5ikTBpTCAEY3jkDmmQdkohOYf+tUIJ+uENP dQHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=sqttsjUqy5aJrjVcN6F3qArdgZGovDPnX+W00SXYSNY=; b=l5JF+ToqCAz36bJqqgmmj6PPaXr14ITEDoNcFAD41HSa43YDo5El9AnV/NFl8z7tQ8 nxddYEacveqwFUZmNWMtOh4NK0BLVnwxWRMvp5nL0DPl8/i20JczjCTr4ObQCqX3Nm6V uVbN2syCYAkl8s4e0DpABHAduUFWFRVlMTffCrn95MoQOR5+DMhWiXKpJrheuCzsoUhn vXaIzMNqAyI1DbFR57esH6nOhJ918hpTuqO03A+ZMxSD+YyXm7ya8vCltyog7rOfXddS zqouYtJRYPV5V0FsJ+zdgUUvJY1I+CprnJkLkY5kpNfWtFuzaR4hM7tF57i9W/H0XK2X ZBCw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo0XoQZ2H9bUaGIzBgAzG63F2nqpezJQyKWohr1RXeSliOl8vGTQ ehJ08zvVxeMqNKtJLrGWVBOwUqNSKdoJMiv/AyTDkAQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR5izmB4X0b6uPJRSBgPgrkhKWPpoE/EIqnlJtUeL4VsgCCB8D+rwEbwW+NpbkllEOtRSoQMRPwgSmF5DO87fCY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:3c4:b0:388:d643:a5b3 with SMTP id n4-20020a05610203c400b00388d643a5b3mr2031018vsq.21.1660855807009; Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:50:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <73828407-38b211dc3a9d78d44c9b9fb6c2b60b85@pmq6v.m5r2.onet> In-Reply-To: <73828407-38b211dc3a9d78d44c9b9fb6c2b60b85@pmq6v.m5r2.onet> From: Erik Aronesty Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 16:49:55 -0400 Message-ID: To: jk_14@op.pl Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066699305e68a20a9" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 21:38:44 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:50:09 -0000 --00000000000066699305e68a20a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1... > Degradation Remember, if hash rate declines (no sign that it will so far), the net-effect is longer clearance times for large transactions. It's not "failure" or "breaking" 2... Certainly, if demand for blockspace isn't high enough to support clearance then the *first *thing to do would be to improve the utility of the chain so that demand for blockspace is high. This is one of the strong reasons to support research like covenants and rgb and taro. If those tools become popular, we will see rising fees. Indeed, large miners should be *paying* researchers to advance these tools. It's in their own best interests. 3... > and on the other side I put game theory and well defined Prisoner's Dilemma. The prisoner's dilemma does not state that zero stakeholders will mine, just far fewer. Real world experiments with actual prisoners and students show cooperation rates of 33%. Plus there are incentives. Stakeholders who want to move large amounts in a reasonable amount of time are incentivised to mine. 4... Changing issuance is a non-starter, forte very game-theoretic reasons you refer to it would destroy the value proposition of the chain, fork the coin and i have every confidence that the surviving fork would be the one without the new issuance On Wed, Aug 17, 2022 at 9:43 AM wrote: > > On one scale you puts the Trust to the large stakeholders (why we avoid > plenty of small stakeholders, btw), > and on the other side I put game theory and well defined Prisoner's > Dilemma. > > Again: large stakeholders WILL NOT incentivised to mine, they will have > the hundreds excuses why not to switch-on Antminers back. > That's how it simply works. Bitcoin would fail miserably if Satoshi was > based his concept mainly on existence of idealists. > > If we will observe lack of hashrate recovery four years after some halvin= g > and still unprepared like today > - means the trust in large stakeholders was a very costly mistake. > > > Superiority of Proof of Work against Proof of Stake has been discussed > enough either > The overall conclusion with what I fully agree is: swapping PoW to PoS - > would be a degradation. > You can stop talking about degradation to proof of stake, but just: > degradation. > > Degradation of Bitcoin, due to human greed. > > Now you mine and you have an INSTANT gratification. > Then you will mine and it will cost you real money, but simple switch - > and you have a DELAYED, maybe some day in the future, maybe only a tiny - > punishment. > And The Punishment Won't Be Tiny. > > > "If the pain after hitting the hand with a hammer would appear after a > month - people would notoriously walk with swollen fingers" > 100% (^2) > > Regards > Jaroslaw > > > > W dniu 2022-08-17 13:10:38 u=C5=BCytkownik Erik Aronesty > napisa=C5=82: > > > you can stop talking about the "security of the system" as meaningful > > this has been discussed enough > > if fees are not sufficient, clearance times increase and large > stakeholders are incentivised to mine > > in the best case, fees are sufficient > > in the worst case, it degrades to proof of stake > > i'm sure you can see how that's fine either way > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --00000000000066699305e68a20a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1...
>=C2=A0 Degradation

Remember, if hash rate declines (no sign that it will so= far), the net-effect is longer clearance times for large transactions.=C2= =A0

It's not "failure" or "breaking&q= uot;

2...
Certainly, if demand for blockspace isn't high enou= gh to support clearance then the first thing to do would be to impro= ve the utility of the chain so that demand for blockspace is high.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

This is one of the strong reasons to support r= esearch like covenants and rgb and taro.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If those tools become = popular, we will see rising fees.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Indeed, large miners should b= e *paying* researchers to advance these tools.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's in thei= r own best interests.

3...
> and on the other side I put game theory and well defined Prisoner's Dil= emma.

The prisoner's dilemma does not state that zero stakeholde= rs will mine,=C2=A0just far fewer.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Real world experiments with = actual prisoners and students=C2=A0show cooperation rates of 33%.=C2=A0 Plu= s there are incentives.=C2=A0 Stakeholders who want to move large amounts i= n a reasonable=C2=A0amount of time are incentivised to mine.

4...
Changing issuance is a non-starter,= forte=C2=A0very game-theoretic reasons you refer to

it would destroy the value proposition of the chain, fork the coin a= nd i have every confidence that the surviving fork would be the one without= the new issuance


On Wed, Aug 17, 2022= at 9:43 AM <jk_14@op.pl> wrote:

On one scale you puts the Trust to the large stakeholders (why we avoid ple= nty of small stakeholders, btw),
and on the other side I put game theory and well defined Prisoner's Dil= emma.

Again: large stakeholders WILL NOT incentivised to mine, they will have the= hundreds excuses why not to switch-on Antminers back.
That's how it simply works.=C2=A0 Bitcoin would fail miserably if Satos= hi was based his concept mainly on existence of idealists.

If we will observe lack of hashrate recovery four years after some halving = and still unprepared like today
- means the trust in large stakeholders was a very costly mistake.


Superiority of Proof of Work against Proof of Stake has been discussed enou= gh either
The overall conclusion with what I fully agree=C2=A0 is: swapping PoW to Po= S - would be a degradation.
You can stop talking about degradation to proof of stake, but just: degrada= tion.

Degradation of Bitcoin, due to human greed.

Now you mine and you have an INSTANT gratification.
Then you will mine and it will cost you real money, but simple switch - and= you have a DELAYED, maybe some day in the future, maybe only a tiny - puni= shment.
And The Punishment Won't Be Tiny.


"If the pain after hitting the hand with a hammer would appear after a= month - people would notoriously walk with swollen fingers"
100% (^2)

Regards
Jaroslaw



W dniu 2022-08-17 13:10:38 u=C5=BCytkownik Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> napisa=C5=82:

> you can stop talking about=C2=A0 the "security of the system"= ; as meaningful
> this has been discussed enough
> if fees are not sufficient, clearance times increase and large stakeho= lders are incentivised to mine=C2=A0
> in the best case, fees are sufficient
> in the worst case, it degrades to proof of stake
> i'm sure you can see how that's fine either=C2=A0way



_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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