From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F172B5E for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 13:47:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-qt0-f170.google.com (mail-qt0-f170.google.com [209.85.216.170]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 549C9FE for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 13:47:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qt0-f170.google.com with SMTP id j29so10378721qtj.1 for ; Thu, 04 May 2017 06:47:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=wXDzANGb8hq1Zkj/oST2o/ZxWIY+AqaMcjfEfBRlf5Q=; b=erZ5s1nYoFPwRbAY33GE+lRTz0+OvqhAaR3BY5eV5dnMWu8xiwMv1DlEfXHXEk58pC sMSKqjjfuaSU/xy1oopNxfTmVTmfr9jkuN/nwQkkNOUHCI1dU9gw/p46N7yVnlm1W1pG S1pnb1c337n+yH76+odI4NoSru1zC/fStfL9Jy8Dt2nj8uQnDgQuki1FEIXlORJ5LygW UGQoK/8WM9SXhggIqyC0/9p0HJenX0p2HhejP3+MwRx4QK854ELxkpx2uzG3qzoaH7/4 sGi3HQNAQP71w12vR93DiTtJrfyULDGm4/pfMaRjRFXb/dL4lIi+UckDAD/DfCDX/xVm RIXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wXDzANGb8hq1Zkj/oST2o/ZxWIY+AqaMcjfEfBRlf5Q=; b=lpaIPoiCEIIJxRAyEwLguC5UI+zTauYkmiWZpHHqxVEtUu5oSftJjkSd/qCGZF/AKo HACDQQFyVnGYcfBYKn+8m+7CaES8ZKHuHFg4e4Yh60ydTz+gX7yMsMXapJx/lxqfgIK2 ZyhqsTnXEXQ0o4nYYs0D4ILwZYA4BtvbC0Jk26vSKochmrlJxMjO1j5FTlR0/et2SZWn wqLIzhem3fuGIXgfSlnQvh8on/0KxtpbI0+lfa2ygcDRTEP195FilZQvvQpT/GStDcLO ks+uSzth0BjRNGUv5PiHj5+IaPGX4Ay4Ay3N6d5MmnyZx9JjmB7tVO3C0FAr27iapBOS kt7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/7EJxamQVZVj7cVmpTdtjaNszZu50lFcnGFu3EYhoJAHYzUJYQh ZJsHZ2kd25ZFU7Kak1lptoVp8i1bX9Au X-Received: by 10.237.53.42 with SMTP id a39mr41700980qte.40.1493905665517; Thu, 04 May 2017 06:47:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: earonesty@gmail.com Received: by 10.200.39.43 with HTTP; Thu, 4 May 2017 06:47:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <02b56878-c4e5-d1b9-07f4-317663f543b5@gmail.com> References: <1493894309.1179269.965498864.6244705A@webmail.messagingengine.com> <02b56878-c4e5-d1b9-07f4-317663f543b5@gmail.com> From: Erik Aronesty Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 09:47:45 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: z0A_9W4x8xUpNKAXVBpRxd7ewzs Message-ID: To: Aymeric Vitte Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c10bc4856e0a054eb3041e X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 May 2017 14:58:48 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Full node "tip" function X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 13:47:47 -0000 --001a11c10bc4856e0a054eb3041e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - Full nodes already perform many valuable services, and simply allowing people to pay for better service is something operators can do now - even without it being baked into bitcoind. Paying for access to a higher-speed relay network, for example, is something that many operators would do. - Baking in the ability to add service fees could make more people *want* to run more high quality, highly available full nodes... which is really one of the most important things developers can be doing. On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Strange idea, incentiving people to run full nodes should certainly not > depend on miners, should certainly not involve another wasteful pow and > should certainly not encourage any collusion between participants like > miners are doing (ie full nodes pools for example or miners creating full > nodes pools) > > Le 04/05/2017 =C3=A0 12:38, Tomas via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit : > > The ones that *could* pay non-mining full nodes are miners/pools, by > outsourcing transaction selection using a different PoW. By doing so the= y > could buy proof-of-uncensored-selection and proof-of-goodwill for a small > fee. > > We would allow full nodes to generate and broadcast a template block whic= h: > > * Does not contain a valid header yet > * Contains the transaction selection > * Contains a coinbase output with a predetermined part of the block rewar= d > (say 0.5%) to themselves > * Contains a nonce for PoW of a predetermined currently ASIC resistant > hash function behind a OP_RETURN. > > The template with the highest PoW since the last block would be leading. = A > miner/pool can then choose to use this instead of their own, adding the > rest of the reward and the SHA nonce themselves. That way they would set = up > a competition among full nodes. > > This would of course be voluntary but provable, so maybe in a pool's > interest to do this via naming and shaming. > > Tomas > bitcrust > > On Wed, May 3, 2017, at 23:43, Ben Thompson via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > I feel like this would be pointless as the vast majority of users would > likely download the blockchain from a node that was not enforcing a tip > requirement as it would seem like unnecessary cost as in protocols such a= s > BitTorrent there is no such tips in sharing files and the blockchain > distribution is in eccense the same thing. However perhaps I am > underestimating the generosity of node operators but I feel that adding a > cost to the blockchain (assuming that all users add a tip requirement) > would lead to centralisation. > > On Wed, 3 May 2017, 22:21 Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev, < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > IDEA: > - Full nodes advertise a bitcoin address. Users that need to download > the block chain from that node can be encouraged to send a tip to the pee= rs > that served them (by % served). Recommended tip of 10mbit should be fin= e. > > - A full nodes can *require* a tip to download the blockchain. If they > do, users that don't specify a tip cannot use them. > > CONS: > > For some people, this may represent a barrier to hosting their own full > node. After all, if you have to pay $15 just to get a copy of the > blockchain, that just adds to the already expensive prospect of hosting a > full node. > PROS: > > As long as you manage to stay online, you should get your money back and > more. This is the an incentive for quality, long term hosting. > In the long term, this should cause stable nodes to stick around longer. > It also discourages "installation spam" attacks on the network. > Fees for other node operations can be considered if this is successful. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing listbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.orghttps://list= s.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > -- > Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets > Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets > Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist > Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass > Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.o= rg > Peersm : http://www.peersm.com > torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live > node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor > GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --001a11c10bc4856e0a054eb3041e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0- Full nodes already perform many valuable services,= and simply allowing people to pay for better service is something operator= s can do now - even without it being baked into bitcoind.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Payin= g for access to a higher-speed relay network, for example, is something tha= t many operators would do.

- Baking in the ability to add servi= ce fees could make more people *want* to run more high quality, highly avai= lable full nodes... which is really one of the most important things develo= pers can be doing.


On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Aymeric Vitte via bitc= oin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>= wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Strange idea, incentiving people to run full nodes should certainly not depend on miners, should certainly not involve another wasteful pow and should certainly not encourage any collusion between participants like miners are doing (ie full nodes pools for example or miners creating full nodes pools)


Le 04/05/2017 =C3= =A0 12:38, Tomas via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=20
The ones that *could* pay non-mining full nodes are miners/pools, by outsourcing transaction selection using a different PoW.=C2=A0 By doing so they could buy proof-of-uncensored-selection and proof-of-goodwill for a small fee.

We would allow full nodes to generate and broadcast a template block which:

* Does not contain a valid header yet
* Contains the transaction selection
* Contains a coinbase output with a predetermined part of the block reward (say 0.5%) to themselves
* Contains a nonce for PoW of a predetermined currently ASIC resistant hash function behind a OP_RETURN.

The template with the highest PoW since the last block would be leading. A miner/pool can then choose to use this instead of their own, adding the rest of the reward and the SHA nonce themselves. That way they would set up a competition among full nodes.

This would of course be voluntary but provable, so maybe=C2=A0in= a pool's interest to do this via naming and shaming.

Tomas
bitcrust

On Wed, May 3, 2017, at 23:43, Ben Thompson via bitcoin-dev wrote:
I feel like this would be pointless as the vast majority of users would likely download the blockchain from a node that was not enforcing a tip requirement as it would seem like unnecessary cost as in protocols such as BitTorrent there is no such tips in sharing files and the blockchain distribution is in eccense the same thing. However perhaps I am underestimating the generosity of node operators but I feel that adding a cost to the blockchain (assuming that all users add a tip requirement) would lead to centralisation.

On Wed, 3 May 2017, 22:21 Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev, <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org= > wrote:
IDEA:
- Full nodes advertise a bitcoin address.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Users that need to download the block chain from that node can be encouraged to send a tip to the peers that served them (by % served).=C2=A0=C2=A0 Recommended tip = of 10mbit should be fine.

- A full nodes can *require* a tip to download the blockchain.=C2=A0 If they do, users that don't specif= y a tip cannot use them.

CONS:

For some people, this may represent a barrier to hosting their own full node.=C2=A0=C2=A0 After all, if yo= u have to pay $15 just to get a copy of the blockchain, that just adds to the already expensive prospect of hosting a full node.=C2=A0=C2=A0
PROS:

As long as you manage to stay online, you should get your money back and more.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is the an incentive for quality, long term hosting.
In the long term, this should cause stable nodes to stick around longer.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It also discourages "installation spam" attacks on the network.
Fees for other node operations can be considered if this is successful.




______________________________=
_________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org
htt=
ps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


--=20
Zcash wallets made simple: h=
ttps://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: =
http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://=
peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.=
com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github=
.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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