public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
To: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Vote on the blocksize limit with proof-of-stake voting
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 14:30:02 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAKaEYh+6eKm0FxGnWQA6RLXC4WO37JJ3nHNqsnNbFqAuAmuUOA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAPg+sBh68-AcAVEfkRBT-x2O+DYHROYkFtG4dmZ1JfNGRr__Mg@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3450 bytes --]

On 10 June 2013 10:35, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Melvin Carvalho
> <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> wrote:
> > However, Bitcoin's fundamental philosophy was one CPU one vote.
>
> This is perhaps the largest misconception that keeps being repeated.
> Bitcoin is not a democracy; it is a zero-trust system. The rules are
> set in stone, and every full node verifies all rules and must
> independently come to the same result as everyone else. Obviously, if
> everyone changes their software, anything can change, but from within
> the system there is no way to change which blocks are considered
> valid, and there is certainly no voting mechanism about that.
>
> What is voted about, is the one single thing that cannot be decided by
> each node individually: namely the order of otherwise valid and
> non-conflicting transactions, and that's just because it's a
> necessity. Because deciding the order includes delaying transaction
> potentially indefinitely, a majority of miners can indeed choose the
> enforce an additional rule about which transactions are considered
> valid, but the rules implemented in full nodes do not change without
> changing the software. For example, miners cannot decide to raise the
> block subsidy, even if every single miner out there would want that.
> They'd just end up being ignored by everyone else.
>
> > Voting is easily gamed.  While this may work in one particular case, it
> is
> > perhaps a bad precedent to set.  Establishing methods of voting can lead
> to
> > single points of failure.
>
> The problem is that at some point, you have to look at the system from
> a higher level than just the technical part. And because ultimately
> the possibility exists where everyone changes their software, and
> there is an exceedingly high incentive for consensus (a deliberate
> hard-fork where two groups of users decide to use different and
> incompatible rules, aware of eachother, is suicide for the system, in
> my opinion). This results in the fact that proposed changes can indeed
> become new adopted hard rules in the system, and I don't think there's
> anything that can be done about it. Bitcoin is a consensus system - at
> the technical level - but also a consensus of the people using it, and
> ultimately they decide the rules.
>

OK I accept that the timestamping is one CPU one vote.  However rule
changes seem rather arbitrary.

Towit if you use a voting/consensus system and want to destroy bitcion it
seems quite easy.

Iterate on picking a rule chance that will divide the consensus in such a
way as to create ensuing chaos.

I think voting is too easy gamed for it it to be meaningful other than a
straw poll.

If there's a bug, and everyone is unanimous that it's a bug, it can be
fixed.

If there's a controversial rule change, we should be extremely cautious and
not do it unless there's a very good reason.  Keeping to satoshi's model as
much as possible without introducing human factors, unnecessarily.


>
>
> > Unless there's a very good reason not to, e.g. miners are clearly abusing
> > the system, we should stick with 1 CPU one vote.
>
> So you're saying that instead of a zero-trust system, we should move
> to a system where miners can decide _everything_ - as opposed to just
> being in charge of ordering transactions? I don't think you understand
> the system at all, if that is what you're proposing.
>
> --
> Pieter
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4396 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2013-06-10 12:30 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 15+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-06-10  4:09 [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Vote on the blocksize limit with proof-of-stake voting John Dillon
     [not found] ` <CAFBxzACPpLd1gmoAzxviU2rLPry=cGNQhEZvYV=q_PLRQQ5wXw@mail.gmail.com>
2013-06-10  4:59   ` John Dillon
2013-06-10  5:30 ` Peter Todd
2013-06-10  6:34   ` Daniel Lidstrom
2013-06-10  8:14 ` Melvin Carvalho
2013-06-10  8:26   ` John Dillon
2013-06-10  8:39     ` Melvin Carvalho
2013-06-10  8:35   ` Pieter Wuille
2013-06-10 12:30     ` Melvin Carvalho [this message]
2013-06-10 16:46 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-06-10 17:25   ` Alan Reiner
2013-06-10 17:43     ` Peter Todd
2013-06-15 18:28       ` John Dillon
2013-06-22 12:05 ` Melvin Carvalho
2013-06-28 10:25   ` John Dillon

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CAKaEYh+6eKm0FxGnWQA6RLXC4WO37JJ3nHNqsnNbFqAuAmuUOA@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=melvincarvalho@gmail.com \
    --cc=bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net \
    --cc=pieter.wuille@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox