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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6a1803df08f44-6fb09b121e6si3959356d6.5.2025.06.09.19.28.25 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jun 2025 19:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of melvincarvalho@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d; Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-3122368d7c4so3928154a91.1 for ; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 19:28:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWWmIewX+wmmhVz7e13lsKQGN5SQ/XTIKi0o3IEL9fQOe+VegWxNuKg/64UuP2MqxHqCswtDRFg/v8j@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvS67kTUwOs3zxiDyyvixJGgXQpNPU3EnUXkylxtXAsF6oAmw3pB2xIrPCCa6n 6OLTB62szVBAagL2zHjKo4CTRYmFBM1UHK4KAUbs+Ck2daT5gnySaOkHkN0epIk+4e/1eUeAO8t DpLE4/3ai34G+PkCeh+lVeqHcATQzmyx8GbK651ASAMg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4e8d:b0:311:d258:3473 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-313472fc4b5mr21183489a91.13.1749522504798; Mon, 09 Jun 2025 19:28:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Melvin Carvalho Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 04:28:11 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtiDilfhDJDq1ZTmgfQoP3wESNVLkQThBJ0KniQfLRTKG3q0ptvPa5EKf0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter To: Andrew Poelstra Cc: "James O'Beirne" , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006cd79b06372e73a7" X-Original-Sender: melvincarvalho@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hiJEEAJO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of melvincarvalho@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=melvincarvalho@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000006cd79b06372e73a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C3=BAt 10. 6. 2025 v 1:11 odes=C3=ADlatel Andrew Poelstra napsal: > Le Mon, Jun 09, 2025 at 04:40:52AM -0700, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit : > > Good morning, > > > > A letter has been published advocating for the final review and > > activation of OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY (BIP-119) and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK > > (BIP-348). > > > > The full text of the letter can be found at https://ctv-csfs.com. It is > > reproduced below. > > > > Hi all, > > > James, thanks for posting the letter. Matt, Antoine -- thanks for > replying quickly and respectfully even though you disagree with its > contents. Let me try to clarify my stance and why I signed onto the > letter. > > First, the specific choice of CTV + CSFS would not be my first choice > on technical grounds. But what I'd like to see is something that is > technically "good enough" to enable vaults and some new script usecases, > while avoiding things that are politically toxic (which seems to be > pretty-much everything, but maybe right now does not include CTV+CSFS?). > > So any arguments about CTV+CSFS on the technical merits I think are > great and within the purview of "review and integration" that the letter > talks about. (The word "final" I think is too strong and in retrospect > I think we should've dropped it. But it's super difficult when writing > these things to identify which specific points of language need to be > changed.) > > > Second, regarding the ultimatum language -- it was quite difficult to > strike a balance between "Core consists of volunteers working on their > on projects, with no obligation to anybody, and certainly no obligation > to drive forward consensus changes" and "this is a letter that says > nothing substantial at all". > > The message that I want to communicate is: Bitcoin Core, like many > stakeholders, can veto any consensus changes because there will never be > a large enough contigent of the Bitcoin community confident to rush in > where angels dare to tread. But furthermore, if nobody in Core wants to > engage at all with consensus changes, then the result is effectively the > same as a veto. > > Therefore, if we want to see an increase in script expressivity, somebody > on the Core team needs to help champion it. (There's no one in particular > I imagine this "somebody" to be, and I suppose you could accuse me of > hypocrisy since I'm not volunteering myself, even though I have the > social and technical knowledge to help. It could be, and probably would > have to be, somebody who isn't currently active on Core. But it needs to > be somebody willing and able to work within the Core review process, to > deal with ongoing rebases, etc.) > > > Third, I really really hope that this letter does not lead to further > brigading or twitter fights or whatever bleeding into the Github repo. > (This is the one point where I think that my fellow cosigners agree with > me fully.) But on the other hand, I don't think that I personally should > shy away from discussion to mitigate that risk; it needs to be mitigated > by more agressive moderation or by higher barriers to entry for people > posting on Core PRs. > Andrew, would you agree with this premise? Bitcoin changes must be demonstrably proven safe, needed, and wanted before adoption. Proposers bear the burden, not the community. If the benefit doesn't demonstrably outweigh the risk, the answer is simple: don't fork the rules. > > > > Best > Andrew > > > > > -- > Andrew Poelstra > Director, Blockstream Research > Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net > Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew > > The sun is always shining in space > -Justin Lewis-Webster > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aEdoIvOgNNtT6L4s%40mail.wpso= ftware.net > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAKaEYh%2BtLtzaqAcN26RLw3AeNhF6VYvMdKrQY6dfCdhYg2Ad3w%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000006cd79b06372e73a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=C3=BAt 10. 6. = 2025 v=C2=A01:11 odes=C3=ADlatel Andrew Poelstra <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net> napsal:
Le Mon, Jun 09, 2025 at 04:4= 0:52AM -0700, James O'Beirne a =C3=A9crit :
> Good morning,
>
> A letter has been published advocating for the final review and
> activation of OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY (BIP-119) and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTAC= K
> (BIP-348).
>
> The full text of the letter can be found at https://ctv-csfs.com. It is=
> reproduced below.
>

Hi all,


James, thanks for posting the letter. Matt, Antoine -- thanks for
replying quickly and respectfully even though you disagree with its
contents. Let me try to clarify my stance and why I signed onto the
letter.

First, the specific choice of CTV + CSFS would not be my first choice
on technical grounds. But what I'd like to see is something that is
technically "good enough" to enable vaults and some new script us= ecases,
while avoiding things that are politically toxic (which seems to be
pretty-much everything, but maybe right now does not include CTV+CSFS?).
So any arguments about CTV+CSFS on the technical merits I think are
great and within the purview of "review and integration" that the= letter
talks about. (The word "final" I think is too strong and in retro= spect
I think we should've dropped it. But it's super difficult when writ= ing
these things to identify which specific points of language need to be
changed.)


Second, regarding the ultimatum language -- it was quite difficult to
strike a balance between "Core consists of volunteers working on their=
on projects, with no obligation to anybody, and certainly no obligation
to drive forward consensus changes" and "this is a letter that sa= ys
nothing substantial at all".

The message that I want to communicate is: Bitcoin Core, like many
stakeholders, can veto any consensus changes because there will never be a large enough contigent of the Bitcoin community confident to rush in
where angels dare to tread. But furthermore, if nobody in Core wants to
engage at all with consensus changes, then the result is effectively the same as a veto.

Therefore, if we want to see an increase in script expressivity, somebody on the Core team needs to help champion it. (There's no one in particul= ar
I imagine this "somebody" to be, and I suppose you could accuse m= e of
hypocrisy since I'm not volunteering myself, even though I have the
social and technical knowledge to help. It could be, and probably would
have to be, somebody who isn't currently active on Core. But it needs t= o
be somebody willing and able to work within the Core review process, to
deal with ongoing rebases, etc.)


Third, I really really hope that this letter does not lead to further
brigading or twitter fights or whatever bleeding into the Github repo.
(This is the one point where I think that my fellow cosigners agree with me fully.) But on the other hand, I don't think that I personally shoul= d
shy away from discussion to mitigate that risk; it needs to be mitigated by more agressive moderation or by higher barriers to entry for people
posting on Core PRs.


And= rew, would you agree with this premise?=C2=A0

Bitc= oin changes must be demonstrably proven safe, needed, and wanted before ado= ption.=C2=A0 Proposers bear the burden, not the community.=C2=A0 If the ben= efit doesn't demonstrably outweigh the risk, the answer is simple: don&= #39;t fork the rules.
=C2=A0



Best
Andrew




--
Andrew Poelstra
Director, Blockstream Research
Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
Web:=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

The sun is always shining in space
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Justin Lewis-Webster

--
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To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aEdoIvOgNNtT6L4s%= 40mail.wpsoftware.net.

--
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