From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ukia0-0008TF-Gc for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:22:48 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.176; envelope-from=melvincarvalho@gmail.com; helo=mail-lb0-f176.google.com; Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com ([209.85.217.176]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1UkiZz-0002nV-0P for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:22:48 +0000 Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id z5so3586024lbh.21 for ; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.137.73 with SMTP id qg9mr818994lbb.87.1370557360179; Thu, 06 Jun 2013 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.2.8 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jun 2013 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 00:22:40 +0200 Message-ID: From: Melvin Carvalho To: Peter Vessenes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01177551990fc304de83c064 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (melvincarvalho[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1UkiZz-0002nV-0P Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Revocability with known trusted escrow services? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:22:48 -0000 --089e01177551990fc304de83c064 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes wrote: > So, this > http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1 article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments > are money laundering tools. > > I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large > corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals. > Actually, I won't, I just said it. > > At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow > without any protocol change, as an opt-in? > > My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time > promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign > at the end of the time. > > The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open > registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when > you saw a transaction go out. > > This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted > escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if > some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach > here. > > When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my > coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if > someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm > not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though. > Also see satoshi's comments on this, though it may be restating what others have said: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750.0 "Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that's possible in software. This is not implemented and I probably won't have time to implement it soon, but just to let you know what's possible. The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller receives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it until the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time after that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the money back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite by never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back to the buyer. While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes the profit out of cheating. If the seller doesn't send the goods, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would still be out the money, but at least the seller has no monetary motivation to stiff him. The buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the escrow money back. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller can see that the funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to anyone else. Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start negotiating, such as "release the money and I'll give you half of it back", but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spite that negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his word and send you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I think for modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone." > > Peter > > -- > > ------------------------------ > > [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES > CEO > > *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes > 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments: > 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations > 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services > 3. A single system of record for all IT processes > http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --089e01177551990fc304de83c064 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com> wrote:
So, this= http://www.americanbanker.com/= bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=3D1 =A0article g= ot posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments are money l= aundering tools.=A0

I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-se= eking large corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent revers= als. Actually, I won't, I just said it.

At any r= ate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow without any p= rotocol change, as an opt-in?

My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service tha= t issues time promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel mess= age, it will sign at the end of the time.=A0

The a= ddresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open registry, so = you could see if you were going to have a delay period when you saw a trans= action go out.

This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythica= l thing, a trusted escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I tho= ught I'd see if some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a l= ayer-on approach here.

When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a= good number of my coins in a one day reversible system, because I would ha= ve warning if someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something = about it. I'm not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow ar= rangement, though.

Also see satoshi's comment= s on this, though it may be restating what others have said:

https://bitcointalk.or= g/index.php?topic=3D750.0

"Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that'= s possible in software.=A0 This is not implemented and I probably won't= have time to implement it soon, but just to let you know what's possib= le.

The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller rec= eives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it unt= il the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time afte= r that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the mon= ey back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite by = never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back to = the buyer.

While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes= the profit out of cheating.

If the seller doesn't send the good= s, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would still be out the money, but at = least the seller has no monetary motivation to stiff him.

The buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the esc= row money back. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller c= an see that the funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to any= one else.

Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start negoti= ating, such as "release the money and I'll give you half of it bac= k", but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spit= e that negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his w= ord and send you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I = think for modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone.&= quot;
=A0

Peter

--

=3D"CoinLabPETER=A0VESSENES=A0
CEO

peter@coinlab.com=A0=A0/=A0=A0206.486.6856 =A0/=A0SKYPE:=A0vessene= s=A0
71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 =A0/=A0 SEATTLE, WA 98104


-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations
2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services
3. A single system of record for all IT processes
http://p= .sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j
_______________________________________= ________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment


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