From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E78C0001 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:06:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89B74EBD4 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:06:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 96XZPOurHjhC for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:06:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:38:11 by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F9654D10E for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2021 11:06:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id u8so29176373ior.13 for ; Thu, 04 Mar 2021 03:06:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=EBprI8bu507DT7oNwYm/DRAQEWBOqf0M1hnGjnn8UY4=; b=l3uUvtZLbqYo8Jc2FkKf1ha/vsm4YJW9JfBpm/Dhv+Maaf5J7hpIpLXCmLovSnMGq4 LQFjm7Y9JWjtJXjZiEcSaXUlKW6jBneAJLqzidw/D/zXX8e5g3rJHI+LJqtzzkbgFTE6 YXXUK4KrBeYkxIXMRVpjmsgQfPr69tCTueWMEwvgChIWWDwls0OkAnpX3bA2N2zXYXzV SDuWqte7W3LVrJoWusVfFKX3aDLE+u/1MWm6JqDQ78QecK2aaAfredztUIAGieaURnDC gv5T42lHcKtV1QGlxL04L2GaFtfNnNRhe5/P9cl7i4prQoaYYVh7pT9hRvGF+7DtiAqv 0mag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=EBprI8bu507DT7oNwYm/DRAQEWBOqf0M1hnGjnn8UY4=; b=oXoebJfBVQqOxrC3qvaHnkz7qS7MjxT7DZqhpMsPdP9vGbpjd9G+q4gkOCMvIv+/X2 QFgsjA8xmR9fgVfLo2+Q1KdMpfqfexd/neHoMrPkUSPsKjEW6tDAJZ4T/ptXJxplViDB OqOpajXWLdsRkS9CHPRghsIJ/Jki2QUG3Yp2kMmWLQr7p3EWhTTpVHDyRedYaQ5GVnZH GoolCbR6MTctCS1T0L8H/vkL1dDUhwq+lu6qyDNbaivm+QoNTRFsFPEUfrJiQS1W9+Uv ARmY7sRl33ZPrnXx4qFQICU5F/bnloW7CWsHXFlDHqB9/0Zl3JWq+JxKO/5wyC6UoMFb Gu1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PsSS9MgILkG4A5jC461ynswED6WDJnwzEhx7IX6wVbGlvHmCk dU/yfEEuEi6rpJcKbtTUPq40TmtcvEdlOtgeJ9f8uzut4vM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz441EA8furdQOYpaxQ2dQ6tm4JDApwyxWy26QVT02tHI9Awax17c4MHEssfxHfID+Nr8ltUaED3rkwrUK6okk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9644:: with SMTP id d4mr2858297ios.54.1614849952946; Thu, 04 Mar 2021 01:25:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Melvin Carvalho Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 10:25:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: John Rand , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf9e0605bcb28d12" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 11:23:13 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] activation mechanism considerations X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 11:06:14 -0000 --000000000000cf9e0605bcb28d12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 10:07, John Rand via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Consensus is important for both taproot and separately for the activation > mechanism. There are more soft-forks that Bitcoin will need, so it is > important to achieve positive progress on the activation topic also, not > get impatient and rush something ill-considered. Not all future soft-forks > maybe as widely supported as taproot, and yet it could become existentially > critical that Bitcoin prevails in achieving a future upgrade in dramatic > circumstances, even against powerful interests counter to Bitcoin user and > investors interests. We should treat the activation topic in a considered > way and with decorum, provide tight non-emotive reasoning devoid of > frustration and impatience. This is a low drama and convenient time to > incrementally improve activation. People have varied views about the > deciding factor, or even which factors resulted in segwit activating after > BIP 141 failed using BIP 9. We do not have to solve everything in one > step, incremental improvement is good, for complex unintuitive topics, to > learn as we go - and it should not be hard to do less badly than what > transpired leading up to BIP 148 and BIP 91. Failure to upgrade if > permanent, or demoralizing to protocol researchers could be a systemic risk > in itself as there are more upgrades Bitcoin will need. We are not Ents > but we should use our collective ingenuity to find an incremental > improvement for activation. > Great high level thoughts The Ents themselves were created in Tolkien's fork of Shakespeare, when he was frustrated to learn that trees didnt actually march :) Having followed standards for 10+ years consensus can be tricky IIRC last time with segwit there was a straw poll in the wiki where devs could express leanings in an informal, async way. Something like that could be of value. There's an insightful spec written at the IETF "On Consensus and Humming in the IETF", then IMHO is worth reading https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282 That said, if we could find an incorruptible machine that could gather the highest fee tx from the mempool and post it every 10 minutes, bitcoin would largely run itself. So, while understanding the gravity of each change, we could perhaps have the mindset that there are a finite number, such that when complete bitcoin will move to an endgame where for the user it 'just works', much like the internet. If devs and changes are needed less, that could be viewed as a sign of success. This is a hand wavy way of saying that forks could potentially be a diminishing issue over time Just my 2 satoshis > > John R > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000cf9e0605bcb28d12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 10:07, John Ran= d via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Consensus is impo= rtant for both taproot and separately for the activation mechanism.=C2=A0 T= here are more soft-forks that Bitcoin will need, so it is important to achi= eve positive progress on the activation topic also, not get impatient and r= ush something ill-considered.=C2=A0 Not all future soft-forks maybe as wide= ly supported as taproot, and yet it could become existentially critical tha= t Bitcoin prevails in achieving a future upgrade in dramatic circumstances,= even against powerful interests counter to Bitcoin user and investors inte= rests.=C2=A0 We should treat the activation topic in a considered way and w= ith decorum, provide tight non-emotive reasoning devoid of frustration and = impatience.=C2=A0 This is a low drama and convenient time to incrementally = improve activation.=C2=A0 People have varied views about the deciding facto= r, or even which factors resulted in segwit activating after BIP 141 failed= using BIP 9.=C2=A0 We do not have to solve everything in one step, increme= ntal improvement is good, for complex unintuitive topics, to learn as we go= - and it should not be hard to do less badly than what transpired leading = up to BIP 148 and BIP 91.=C2=A0 Failure to upgrade if permanent, or demoral= izing to protocol researchers could be a systemic risk in itself as there a= re more upgrades Bitcoin will need.=C2=A0 We are not Ents but we should use= our collective ingenuity to find an incremental improvement for activation= .

Great high level thoughts

The Ents themselves were created in Tolkien's fork of S= hakespeare, when he was frustrated to learn that trees didnt actually march= :)

Having followed standards for 10+ years co= nsensus can be tricky

IIRC last time with segwit t= here was a straw poll in the wiki where devs could express leanings in an i= nformal, async way.=C2=A0 Something like that could be of value.
<= div>
There's an insightful spec written at the IETF "= ;On Consensus and Humming in the IETF", then IMHO is worth reading
=


That said, = if we could find an incorruptible machine that could gather the highest fee= tx from the mempool and post it every 10 minutes, bitcoin would largely ru= n itself.=C2=A0 So, while understanding the gravity of each change, we coul= d perhaps have the mindset that there are a finite number, such that when c= omplete bitcoin will move to an endgame where for the user it 'just wor= ks', much like the internet.=C2=A0 If devs and changes are needed less,= that could be viewed as a sign of success.=C2=A0 This is a hand wavy way o= f saying that forks could potentially be a diminishing issue over time
<= /div>

Just my 2 satoshis
=C2=A0
John R
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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