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[2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-3b47156a702si258788f8f.4.2025.07.09.13.14.15 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Jul 2025 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ademan555@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::336 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::336; Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-451d7b50815so1898245e9.2 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2025 13:14:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUqeL5M9NImyGjdSx8NjTw7r43nfGz1NyLpr6OhKIxVF1I/rZ4SrNoMDUk1+2l+IRvGZ1l+Xmn3JkNn@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctc9184HB5wXiS4tYRXU8YSWaOvFKy0sZQ6/YyHecSnMFuzNWuLoMDuxH1Gbzf DtaqOJ5fWv4z8vdwG7oXTbJaeKMar+jDdGI8Rs6pk/x6DWAfRnPDKQAVlw9ZGEz3M9StcGjn1qt omP1f/erjPtY1FFSTwa8dUEqOZOOyahml7Ilzphq4XD/g= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1c8b:b0:43c:f513:9591 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-454db7f693emr10502065e9.14.1752092054532; Wed, 09 Jul 2025 13:14:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26b96fb1-d916-474a-bd23-920becc3412cn@googlegroups.com> <682337FB-F451-459F-8B4C-56E61C49FA4F@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <682337FB-F451-459F-8B4C-56E61C49FA4F@gmail.com> From: Ademan Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 15:14:02 -0500 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwVtjioeDA6vqx3VlAUrtpi9MzUitLFi4y4xS_tmMFxfYNQKRqTwmC6EO0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] A Taproot-native (re-)bindable transaction bundle proposal To: Rijndael Cc: Greg Sanders , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000863935063984b8f5" X-Original-Sender: ademan555@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=QDCYoxQi; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ademan555@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::336 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ademan555@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000863935063984b8f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isn't it indirectly committed to by sha_sequences? On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 3:09=E2=80=AFPM Rijndael wrote= : > Hey Greg, > > The CTV commitment includes the number of inputs. I notice that the > TEMPLATEHASH commitment does not. What=E2=80=99s the rationale there? > > Thanks, > > Rijndael > > On Jul 9, 2025, at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM, Greg Sanders w= rote: > > Hello all, > > This is a bit of a follow-up from "What's a good stopping point? ... > CTV/CSFS..." from [^1] > > > There has been several objections to this proposal, which we can group > into three categories: > exploration of alternatives, demonstration of usage, and design of the > operations to achieve these capabilities > > For this e-mail I would like to address the third point proactively: > design of the operations to achieve these capabilities. > > Antoine Poinsot, Steven Roose, and I have been working on a familiar, yet > concrete technical proposal that focuses on three well-understood > capabilities: > > 1. "Next transaction" capability, ala BIP119 > 2. "Verify signature of message on stack", ala BIP348 > 3. "Push taproot internal key onto stack", ala BIP349 > > These first two capabilities can offer radical simplifications > to well-understood systems when combined. The third is a simple > update that dovetails with the first two. > > The BIP text is here( > https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_templatehash/bip-templateh= ash-csfs-ik.md) > and PR here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/pull/1), with full > motivation for this particular bundle and rationale discussing > alternatives. Our main contribution is a fully specified `OP_TEMPLATEHASH= ` > as a drop-in replacement for BIP119 `OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY`. > `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` is a simpler and more modern implementation of the "nex= t > transaction" capability. It differs in committing to the Taproot annex an= d > being otherwise Taproot native, which allows us to: > > - Use the `OP_SUCCESS` upgrade hooks in place of legacy `OP_NOP`s and be > able to push the template hash on the stack making the flagship use case = of > rebindable signatures more efficient. > - Re-use the existing pre-computed Taproot sighash fields only instead of > introducing new ones (substantially simplifying the implementation and > review of the specifications). > - Not commit to the spending transaction's scriptSigs (which are both > unecessary and may incentivize ad-hoc uses of legacy input scripts as > programs). > - Not unnecessarily modify the less well-understood legacy Script. > > Another notable difference is the lack of "bare CTV" analogue, which is > implemented here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/tree/p2th) but > left out of the bundle due to lack of demonstrated utility. > > The BIP for `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` is here( > https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_templatehash/bip-templateh= ash.md) > and a complete implementation is provided here( > https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/pull/3). The bundle itself is > heavily inspired by "LNHANCE"( > https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lnhance-bips-and-implementation/376). > > We are hopeful that an opcode/implementation-focused discussion can be he= ld > concurrently with other efforts such as discussions as to whether > or not this capability set is a good stopping point, including whether > this bundle is worth implementing on its own at all, as well as what > level of assurances we should have as far as tooling and proof of concept= s > is concerned. > > Best, > Greg > > (1) https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/-qJc1EWQzY0 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/26b96fb1-d916-474a-bd23-920b= ecc3412cn%40googlegroups.com > > . > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/682337FB-F451-459F-8B4C-56E6= 1C49FA4F%40gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAKwYL5GjrOp5QbwMF%2BvS6dDYPjc7tBNPAZsqVBzb1DcY_h4FpQ%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000863935063984b8f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Isn't it indirectly committed to by sha_sequences?
On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 3:09=E2=80=AFPM Rijndael <rot13maxi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Greg,
The CTV commitment includes the number of inputs. I notice that= the TEMPLATEHASH commitment does not. What=E2=80=99s the rationale there?<= /div>

Thanks,=C2=A0

Rijndael

On Jul 9, 2025, at 2:19=E2=80=AFPM, Greg Sanders &l= t;gsanders87@gmai= l.com> wrote:

Hello all,

This is a bit of a fol= low-up from "What's a good stopping point? ... CTV/CSFS..." f= rom [^1]

> There has been several objections to this proposal, wh= ich we can group into three categories:
exploration of alternatives, dem= onstration of usage, and design of the operations to achieve these capabili= ties

For this e-mail I would like to address the third point proacti= vely: design of the operations to achieve these capabilities.

Antoin= e Poinsot, Steven Roose, and I have been working on a familiar, yet concret= e technical proposal that focuses on three well-understood capabilities:
1. "Next transaction" capability, ala BIP119
2. "Ver= ify signature of message on stack", ala BIP348
3. "Push taproo= t internal key onto stack", ala BIP349

These first two capabili= ties can offer radical simplifications
to well-understood systems when c= ombined. The third is a simple
update that dovetails with the first two.=

The BIP text is here(htt= ps://github.com/instagibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_templatehash/bip-templatehash-c= sfs-ik.md) and PR here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bips/pull/1), wit= h full motivation for this particular bundle and rationale discussing alter= natives. Our main contribution is a fully specified `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` as a = drop-in replacement for BIP119 `OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY`. `OP_TEMPLATEHASH` = is a simpler and more modern implementation of the "next transaction&q= uot; capability. It differs in committing to the Taproot annex and being ot= herwise Taproot native, which allows us to:

- Use the `OP_SUCCESS` = upgrade hooks in place of legacy `OP_NOP`s and be able to push the template= hash on the stack making the flagship use case of rebindable signatures mo= re efficient.
- Re-use the existing pre-computed Taproot sighash fields = only instead of introducing new ones (substantially simplifying the impleme= ntation and review of the specifications).
- Not commit to the spending = transaction's scriptSigs (which are both unecessary and may incentivize= ad-hoc uses of legacy input scripts as programs).
- Not unnecessarily m= odify the less well-understood legacy Script.

Another notable differ= ence is the lack of "bare CTV" analogue, which is implemented her= e(https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/tree/p2th) but left out of t= he bundle due to lack of demonstrated utility.

The BIP for `OP_TEMPL= ATEHASH` is here(https://github.com/inst= agibbs/bips/blob/bip_op_templatehash/bip-templatehash.md) and a complet= e implementation is provided here(https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/pul= l/3). The bundle itself is heavily inspired by "LNHANCE"(https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lnhance-bips-and-implementatio= n/376).

We are hopeful that an opcode/implementation-focused dis= cussion can be held
concurrently with other efforts such as discussions = as to whether
or not this capability set is a good stopping point, inclu= ding whether
this bundle is worth implementing on its own at all, as wel= l as what
level of assurances we should have as far as tooling and proof= of concepts
is concerned.

Best,
Greg

(1) https= ://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/-qJc1EWQzY0

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