From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WSY9R-0004uG-4u for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 20:40:49 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.182; envelope-from=ricardojdfilipe@gmail.com; helo=mail-we0-f182.google.com; Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com ([74.125.82.182]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WSY9O-0002s5-Kc for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 20:40:48 +0000 Received: by mail-we0-f182.google.com with SMTP id p61so707382wes.41 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.99.225 with SMTP id et1mr24891309wib.13.1395780040248; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.128.207 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:40:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140325134918.GB7929@savin> References: <20140322084702.GA13436@savin> <20140322150836.GG3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140322190825.GB6047@savin> <532DE7E6.4050304@monetize.io> <20140325122851.GA9818@savin> <20140325134918.GB7929@savin> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 20:40:40 +0000 Message-ID: From: Ricardo Filipe To: Peter Todd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (ricardojdfilipe[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WSY9O-0002s5-Kc Cc: Bitcoin Dev , Gavin Andresen Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Tree-chains preliminary summary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 20:40:49 -0000 2014-03-25 13:49 GMT+00:00 Peter Todd : > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 08:45:00AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 8:28 AM, Peter Todd wrote: >> >> > Bitcoin doesn't scale. There's a lot of issues at hand here, but the >> > most fundemental of them is that to create a block you need to update >> > the state of the UTXO set, and the way Bitcoin is designed means that >> > updating that state requires bandwidth equal to all the transaction >> > volume to keep up with the changes to what set. Long story short, we get >> > O(n^2) scaling, which is just plain infeasible. >> > >> >> We have a fundamental disagreement here. >> >> If you go back and read Satoshi's original thoughts on scaling, it is clear >> that he imagined tens of thousands of mining nodes and hundreds of millions >> of lightweight SPV users. > > Yeah, about that... > > https://blockchain.info/pools > On-topic: This argument is quite the fallacy. The only reason we have that few pools is because each of their miners doesn't find it feasible to mine "on their own". if you count the individual miners on those pools you will get to the scale Gavin was trying to point out. Nevertheless i think that is just a minor disagreement, since tree chains help decentralization. > For someone with 'Chief Scientist' as their job title, I'm surprised you > think so little of hard evidence and so much of idol worshipping. > > > P.S. A year or so ago you complained that if I cared so much about > decentralization, I should make P2Pool better. Your homework: What do > tree-chains and Andrew Miller's non-outsourcable puzzles(1) have to do > with that? What about the cube-square law? And why don't I think TXO > commitments solve the blocksize problem? > > 1) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309073.0;all > > -- > 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > 000000000000000020366a15799010ae0432be831c197e06b19133028a9aa6f3 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >