From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WwbFn-00034i-Fj for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:03:35 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.220.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.178; envelope-from=alexy.kot.all@gmail.com; helo=mail-vc0-f178.google.com; Received: from mail-vc0-f178.google.com ([209.85.220.178]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WwbFl-0002ca-KF for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:03:35 +0000 Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id ij19so5259640vcb.23 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.252.4 with SMTP id zo4mr14768980vdc.20.1402941807967; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: alexy.kot.all@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.225.35 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Alex Kotenko Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 19:02:47 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8Ihc55DP6fgN63Yx9NooqkLDDyo Message-ID: To: Lawrence Nahum Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133f7701ac4e204fbf7d892 X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (alexy.kot.all[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.3 HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD BODY: HTML font face is not a word -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WwbFl-0002ca-KF Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] instant confirmation via payment protocol backwards compatible proto buffer extension X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:03:35 -0000 --001a1133f7701ac4e204fbf7d892 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Lawrence/All I'm afraid with this BIP for TTP of instant transactions we will end up in VISA world again. As I see it - it's not about if the TTPs will centralize, it's only when. Simply because if economy of scales makes growth profitable and coming into this market is at least a little expensive - this (centralization, VISA world) will happen, sooner rather than later. And while some may argue that coming to market in Bitcoin world is cheap so the crowd will always have a chance to come in and beat the monopolists - think of one thing. Right now Bitcoin is not seen as money and not regulated accordingly anywhere in the world, thanks God, but how many years away we are from the point when it will start to be regulated that way? And once it is - the monopolies will make sure that rules are restrictive enough to prevent competition, especially in conjunction with economy of scales playing against the small newcomers. The "instant providers list" is susceptible to regulatory influence, and once in place and widespread - it will be a timebomb under Bitcoin. We need to solve the doublespend issue without TTP involvement, or at least without even a slight chance of making this involvement regulateable. Otherwise I think the Bitcoin experiment will fail. Best regards, Alex Kotenko 2014-06-16 18:16 GMT+01:00 Lawrence Nahum : > Mike Hearn plan99.net> writes: > > > As long as miners stick to Satoshi's first seen rule, which is the > default, it's useful: > > > > > > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819 > > > > > > > > > > (this is the famous "snack machine" thread from 2010) > > > > If they decide to change to something like highest-fee-always-wins, then > they (again) centralise things by forcing all instant transactions to pay > GreenAddress and its competitors money - much though I like your product > Lawrence, let's hope they don't collectively lemming us all off a cliff by > doing that ;) > > > I assume we can't enforce to miners rules about which tx will go in and > which won't and therefore whether this will cause more or less double > spends. > > > I mean, you can try but I would rather have to option to pick an third > party > instant provider explicitly than enforce bigger rules on mining which > would > IMHO lead to implicit centralization. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions > Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems > Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data. > Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration > http://p.sf.net/sfu/hpccsystems > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --001a1133f7701ac4e204fbf7d892 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lawrence/All


I'm afraid with this BIP for TTP of instant t= ransactions we will end up in VISA world again. As I see it - it's not = about if the TTPs will centralize, it's only when. Simply because if ec= onomy of scales makes growth profitable and coming into this market is at l= east a little expensive - this (centralization, VISA world) will happen, so= oner rather than later.=C2=A0
And while some may argue that coming to market in= Bitcoin world is cheap so the crowd will always have a chance to come in a= nd beat the monopolists - think of one thing. Right now Bitcoin is not seen= as money and not regulated accordingly anywhere in the world, thanks God, = but how many years away we are from the point when it will start to be regu= lated that way? And once it is - the monopolies will make sure that rules a= re restrictive enough to prevent competition, especially in conjunction wit= h economy of scales playing against the small newcomers.=C2=A0
The "instant providers list" is suscept= ible to regulatory influence, and once in place and widespread - it will be= a timebomb under Bitcoin. We need to solve the doublespend issue without T= TP involvement, or at least without even a slight chance of making this inv= olvement regulateable. Otherwise I think the Bitcoin experiment will fail.<= /div>


<= /div>
Best regards,=C2= =A0
Alex Kotenko


2014-06-16 18:16 GMT+01:00 Lawrence Nahu= m <lawrence@greenaddress.it>:
Mike Hearn <mike <at> plan99.net> writes:

> As long as miners stick to Satoshi's first s= een rule, which is the
default, it's useful:
>
>
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D423.msg3819= #msg3819
>
>
>
>
> (this is the famous "snack machine" thread from 2010)
>
> If they decide to change to something like highest-fee-always-wins, th= en
they (again) centralise things by forcing all instant transactions to pay GreenAddress and its competitors money - much though I like your product Lawrence, let's hope they don't collectively lemming us all off a c= liff by
doing that ;)


I assume we can't enforce to miners rules about which tx will go = in and
which won't and therefore whether this will cause more or less double spends.


I mean, you can try but I would rather have to option to pick an third part= y
instant provider explicitly than =C2=A0enforce bigger rules on mining which= would
IMHO lead to implicit centralization.






---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
HPCC Systems Open Source Big Data Platform from LexisNexis Risk Solutions Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
Open Source. Fast. Scalable. Simple. Ideal for Dirty Data.
Leverages Graph Analysis for Fast Processing & Easy Data Exploration http://p.sf.n= et/sfu/hpccsystems
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