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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 46e09a7af769-73a284fe45asi71830a34.3.2025.06.18.21.57.01 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Jun 2025 21:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of antoine.riard@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030; Received: by mail-pj1-x1030.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-312116d75a6so234297a91.3 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 21:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvGLTtaUXxnB2T7zUbrXHuPgUMZguFSf6usTIt0gn7bqLWqiWlDhm5umjbu8kL CZ/rtmesLkpsep5LRFUEJTVe1vRe/7RqQLEvQORzW+Rnzrz2ww0d5g82R1Cfj+kCtVYXVhDoo4s KsZtW7uko+biwM3ze0SubO6kAwZc9a96BKEMlBanEUvdo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:350a:b0:2ee:6d08:7936 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-313f1d58ba9mr27984791a91.20.1750309020415; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 21:57:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1b4a4871c6531da5a7fdcf67cd218848@dtrt.org> In-Reply-To: <1b4a4871c6531da5a7fdcf67cd218848@dtrt.org> From: Antoine Riard Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 05:56:49 +0100 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFslmAAoRWvntokM9flfT1Q63FPMOX91AIrjJkkIaRt39koiMchmz-AZ2no Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Full-Disclosure: CVE-2025-27586 "No Santa Claus under the Lightning Sun" To: "David A. Harding" Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068bd8a0637e59352" X-Original-Sender: antoine.riard@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hh0Ak3y6; spf=pass (google.com: domain of antoine.riard@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::1030 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=antoine.riard@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --00000000000068bd8a0637e59352 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I don't know if I were among the first one to stumble on this problem. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if some people who worked at that time on implementing anchor output such as Johan Toras Halseth or Joost Jager might have mentioned it publicly or semi-privately. Of course, if there are more links where it could have been discussed, please pointed out to me, though with my memory of the conv circa 2020 about anchor outputs, I'm not aware of them. About the pull request you're pointing out (https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4908), it should be said that the original anchor output pull request didn't mention anything about fee-bumping reserves mngt ( https://github.com/lightning/bolts/pull/688/files). Only a "MUST contribute sufficient fee to ensure timely inclusion in a block". It's like "danke schon, aber was?". By the time of this pull LND pull request, anchor output was already deployed on the network (under the broken `option_anchor_output`) in early beta. I'm not going to make a rant in LN development if we ship first the cars, then we go to wonder if we have shipped the seat belts too. That would be too easy and too free... Share with you off-list more details. Best, Antoine OTS hash: dc78f072e3cd20c0efeea728e83b5f1b121824836543f0cda346a3c7dd5a36fa Le mer. 18 juin 2025 =C3=A0 03:16, David A. Harding a =C3= =A9crit : > On 2025-06-12 09:03, Antoine Riard wrote: > > This class of attacks dubbed "fee-bumping reserves exhaustion attacks" > > [...] > > ## Timeline > > > > - 2022-07-11: Report of the finding to XXX, Bastien Teinturier > > (Eclair), Lisa Neigut > > Hi Antoine, > > I read your post twice but everything in it seems obvious. What am I > missing? It's obvious that (1) exogenous fee bumping requires keeping > an independent reserve of sufficient funds and (2) that the amount of > the reserve can vary depending on transaction size and prevalent > feerates. The earliest description of that problem I found is from more > than a year before your report ( > https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4908 ), but I suspect I > could find other even earlier discussion if I looked harder. > > Is there more to this vulnerability report that I'm missing? > > Thanks, > > -Dave > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CALZpt%2BGUH93TcjKevHu%2Bhrd45fvrDGvhY7tYXEPror0fw27CXA%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000068bd8a0637e59352 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dave,

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
I don't know if I were among the first one to stumble on
this = problem. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if some
people who worke= d at that time on implementing anchor output
such as Johan Toras Halseth= or Joost Jager might have mentioned
it publicly or semi-privately. Of c= ourse, if there are more
links where it could have been discussed, pleas= e pointed out
to me, though with my memory of the conv circa 2020 about<= br>anchor outputs, I'm not aware of them.

About the pull request= you're pointing out
(https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4908), it = should be
said that the original anchor output pull request didn't m= ention
anything about fee-bumping reserves mngt (https://github.com/lightning/bolts/p= ull/688/files).
Only a "MUST contribute sufficient fee to ensur= e timely inclusion in
a block". It's like "danke schon, ab= er was?".

By the time of this pull LND pull request, anchor out= put was already
deployed on the network (under the broken `option_anchor= _output`)
in early beta. I'm not going to make a rant in LN developm= ent if
we ship first the cars, then we go to wonder if we have shipped t= he
seat belts too. That would be too easy and too free...

Share w= ith you off-list more details.

Best,
Antoine
OTS hash: dc78f07= 2e3cd20c0efeea728e83b5f1b121824836543f0cda346a3c7dd5a36fa

Le=C2=A0mer. 18 juin 2025 =C3=A0=C2=A003:16, David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
On 2025-06-12 09:03, = Antoine Riard wrote:
> This class of attacks dubbed "fee-bumping reserves exhaustion att= acks"
> [...]
> ## Timeline
>
> - 2022-07-11: Report of the finding to XXX, Bastien Teinturier
> (Eclair), Lisa Neigut

Hi Antoine,

I read your post twice but everything in it seems obvious.=C2=A0 What am I =
missing?=C2=A0 It's obvious that (1) exogenous fee bumping requires kee= ping
an independent reserve of sufficient funds and (2) that the amount of
the reserve can vary depending on transaction size and prevalent
feerates.=C2=A0 The earliest description of that problem I found is from mo= re
than a year before your report (
https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/4908 ), but I suspect I
could find other even earlier discussion if I looked harder.

Is there more to this vulnerability report that I'm missing?

Thanks,

-Dave

--
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To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/= d/msgid/bitcoindev/CALZpt%2BGUH93TcjKevHu%2Bhrd45fvrDGvhY7tYXEPror0fw27CXA%= 40mail.gmail.com.
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