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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 006d021491bc7-61dc76f082dsi212593eaf.1.2025.08.24.16.23.57 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of antoine.riard@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d; Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-24457f581aeso27364825ad.0 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:23:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuVhfAMaISwEVfKEaYBJFmLz7t+M9H7xH1bWCRYsLn1cXSN+cKoPJivod74b0u DWnh1Lg9vF3n93DjvxHG/Xi15ipfZja6MYnax2uFL8FQ6S/xKItXUvbTLWCaGxpiZigsriElKIk fXUyo56tuMj1XnbwYTEUuZ31RctzUSHlNkb3/gOSFodr22tMr0Cw3k/OXU9j/cFRFUOtkg9dRyM 4r9PBY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:4b30:b0:246:cfa2:81df with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-246cfa2b3b6mr22032025ad.43.1756077836538; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Antoine Riard Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2025 00:23:44 +0100 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXwym5lDpNy1AbTpZscdFRr2VcJGKdXi8U3C8nzpS07eX5IaeZwJbmYFS8Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Workshops and Activation for CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and CHECKSIGFROMSTACK To: "/dev /fd0" Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a52128063d24bb8b" X-Original-Sender: antoine.riard@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=bvO8lsed; spf=pass (google.com: domain of antoine.riard@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=antoine.riard@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000a52128063d24bb8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Floppy, Yeah, I mean it would be nice for the letter signatories to have also put their code review along their tag names... Most of the time consensus changes are a bit more complex than "yes" or "no" or "good" vs "evil" and I do understand the recrimination of my fella bitcoin core hackers on the nonsense that this kind of letter can lead to... I do remember the Buck O'Perley comments here [0], that a gathering of all the technical opinions could be welcome to let the wider community, beyond the narrow "powwow" of the developers, makes its own opinion on consensus changes. In that spirit, in my view it would have been better for each letter signatory to explain the technical reasons, trade-offs they see, why they think CTV i= s technically solid, etc on their personal blog post or something else... Anyway, I did concept ACK the BIP119 code branch (for the reasons explained): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453 I'm not going to die on a hill for CTV to happen, but I won't also won't die on a hill for CTV _not_ to happen. So officially, I'm in the "bored" camp of devs on the CTV discussion. I was there when its original author presented it to the world back in 2019= , and since then and so far I cannot find reasons how CTV is a technical hazard for the bitcoin network (see more caveats in my comment). Personally, I'm not excited for it, though as a developer engaging in consensus changes, if there are enough developers and stakeholders in the ecosystem who wish it, I'm fine with it. Nice, for the IRC meetings, and yes I have memory of the taproot workshop it was good, I don't think I'll be able to join the IRC meetings, though if there are transcripts I'll try to keep an eye on it. Best, Antoine OTS hash: 87dfdb18a8a6abca5a0e4bc8b56da4d11fe0b9bd797fbb02aa8e497377637b98 [0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VUR4GQx6bSi= 2ftOuNTK1c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ=3D@proton= mail.com/ Le ven. 22 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 04:28, /dev /fd0 a= =C3=A9crit : > Hi Antoine, > > > Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ tim= e > reviewing more CTV code ? > > Some of them have reviewed CTV earlier in other pull requests and others > could be application developers who are interested in the use cases. > > > https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can > transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so) > > Thanks for sharing the link. I found the [taproot workshops][0] repositor= y > useful as well. I will create a new repository for CTV-CSFS workshops, > meetings etc. to document everything. > > Workshop #1 > > Time: 28 August 2025 15:00 UTC > Channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat > > - Review and understand [BIP 119][1] > - Create basic CTV transactions on signet > > [0]: https://github.com/bitcoinops/taproot-workshop > [1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki > > /dev/fd0 > floppy disk guy > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 5:37=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Riard > wrote: > >> Hi Floppy, >> >> The call to review CTV has been published Jun. 9. >> >> On this letter, I can count ~60 names. >> >> Since the time of publication (2 months after), only 5 people have put a >> code review comment on #31989. >> >> Among the 5 people, only 2 were letter signatories (average-gary + >> stuxto). >> >> Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ time >> reviewing more CTV code ? >> >> ... >> >> Now, of course anyone is free to patch CTV on top of knot and go to try >> the activation run with that. >> >> Personally, I still think we should aim for more neutral consensus >> development process... >> >> This was the intent with the bitcoin contracting primitives WG, done on >> an open IRC chan. >> >> https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can >> transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so) >> >> Where rather to present a primitive proposal as a "done deal" from a "po= w >> wow" of experts, >> the goal was to create a neutral online forum for discussion open to >> anyone in the world >> who self-estimate they qualify as an expert on bitcoin consensus...and >> humbly trying to >> do better than the mess of the 2015 - 2017 period w.r.t consensus change= s. >> >> Best, >> Antoine >> OTS hash: 0d3c23682b630c9c85288ece8e1acae2f4a3c76254e16e36ccb6ca0fcef255= 6b >> >> Le lundi 18 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 15:43:54 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit= : >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> IRC channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat >>> >>> I [requested][0] the economic nodes to review different soft fork >>> proposals and share their opinion on 5 March 2025. Four entries were ad= ded >>> to the [wiki][1] and nobody has any objections to the proposals. Some >>> organizations do not want to publicly participate in this process to av= oid >>> politics and drama. >>> >>> A [letter][2] was signed on 9 June 2025 by bitcoin developers to get >>> more core contributors involved in the review process. It was followed = by a >>> [proposal][3] that makes a few changes to CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and combi= nes >>> it with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK. Personally, I don't like that TEMPLATEHASH i= s >>> restricted to taproot and don't see anything wrong with >>> CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY. However, other developers may disagree with me and >>> have different opinion. I have created an IRC channel for workshops, >>> meetings, activation, etc. >>> >>> We can finalize a meeting schedule so we can use the IRC channel to mov= e >>> closer to covenants activation on bitcoin. >>> >>> I think BIP 8 would be a better option for the next soft fork. >>> [Previously][4], some suggestions were [rejected][5] because knots was = not >>> used by a large number of users. However, things have changed since the= n >>> and [~15%][6] of nodes use knots for bitcoin. >>> >>> [0]: https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQA= J >>> [1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support >>> [2]: https://ctv-csfs.com/ >>> [3]: https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAA= J >>> [4]: >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5...@mail.gmai= l.com/ >>> >>> [5]: >>> https://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a047= 3d05d634946b4/dev/fd0 >>> [6]: https://bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=3Dknots#network-snapshot >>> >>> /dev/fd0 >>> floppy disk guy >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/e0a46b30-e633-4f38-b737-a5f= 1973da901n%40googlegroups.com >> >> . >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CALZpt%2BHT7xV-DuTZSfF7JZQ_dmqc91iZN%3DhKPZ6mp5oQkNiD2Q%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000a52128063d24bb8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Floppy,

Yeah, I mean it would be nice for the le= tter signatories to have also
put their code review along their tag name= s... Most of the time consensus
changes are a bit more complex than &quo= t;yes" or "no" or "good" vs "evil" andI do understand the recrimination of my fella bitcoin core hackers on
= the nonsense that this kind of letter can lead to...

I do remember t= he Buck O'Perley comments here [0], that a gathering of all
the tech= nical opinions could be welcome to let the wider community, beyond
the n= arrow "powwow" of the developers, makes its own opinion on consen= sus changes.
In that spirit, in my view it would have been better for ea= ch letter signatory
to explain the technical reasons, trade-offs they se= e, why they think CTV is
technically solid, etc on their personal blog p= ost or something else...

Anyway, I did concept ACK the BIP119 code b= ranch (for the reasons explained):
https://github.com/bitcoin/bit= coin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453

I'm not going to die= on a hill for CTV to happen, but I won't also won't
die on a hi= ll for CTV _not_ to happen. So officially, I'm in the "bored"=
camp of devs on the CTV discussion.

I was there when its origina= l author presented it to the world back in 2019,
and since then and so f= ar I cannot find reasons how CTV is a technical hazard
for the bitcoin n= etwork (see more caveats in my comment). Personally, I'm not
excited= for it, though as a developer engaging in consensus changes, if there
a= re enough developers and stakeholders in the ecosystem who wish it, I'm= fine
with it.

Nice, for the IRC meetings, and yes I have memory = of the taproot
workshop it was good, I don't think I'll be able = to join the IRC
meetings, though if there are transcripts I'll try t= o keep an eye
on it.

Best,
Antoine
OTS hash: 87dfdb18a8a6ab= ca5a0e4bc8b56da4d11fe0b9bd797fbb02aa8e497377637b98

[0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VU= R4GQx6bSi2ftOuNTK1c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ= =3D@protonmail.com/

Le=C2=A0ven. 22 ao=C3=BBt 2025= =C3=A0=C2=A004:28, /dev /fd0 <= alicexbtong@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
Hi Antoine,

> = =C2=A0Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ ti= me reviewing more CTV code ?

Some of them have reviewed CTV earlier = in other pull requests and others could be application developers who are i= nterested in the use cases.

> https://github.com/a= riard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can transfer you the repo owne= rship if you wish so)

Thanks for sharing the link. I found the [tapr= oot workshops][0] repository useful as well. I will create a new repository= for CTV-CSFS workshops, meetings etc. to document everything.

Works= hop #1

Time: 28 August 2025 15:00 UTC
Channel: #ctv-csfs-activati= on on libera.chat

- Review and understand [BIP 119][1]
- Create b= asic CTV transactions on signet

[0]: https://github.com/bitcoinops= /taproot-workshop
[1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/= bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki

/dev/fd0
floppy disk guy<= /div>
O= n Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 5:37=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com> = wrote:
Hi Floppy= ,

The call to review CTV has been published Jun. 9.

On this l= etter, I can count ~60 names.

Since the time of publication (2 month= s after), only 5 people have put a code review comment on #31989.

Am= ong the 5 people, only 2 were letter signatories (average-gary + stuxto).
Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ ti= me reviewing more CTV code ?

...

Now, of course anyone is fre= e to patch CTV on top of knot and go to try the activation run with that.
Personally, I still think we should aim for more neutral consensus de= velopment process...

This was the intent with the bitcoin contractin= g primitives WG, done on an open IRC chan.

https://gi= thub.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can transfer you the= repo ownership if you wish so)

Where rather to present a primitive = proposal as a "done deal" from a "pow wow" of experts,<= br>the goal was to create a neutral online forum for discussion open to any= one in the world
who self-estimate they qualify as an expert on bitcoin = consensus...and humbly trying to
do better than the mess of the 2015 - 2= 017 period w.r.t consensus changes.

Best,
Antoine
OTS hash: 0d= 3c23682b630c9c85288ece8e1acae2f4a3c76254e16e36ccb6ca0fcef2556b

Le lundi 18 ao= =C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 15:43:54 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=
Hi every= one,

IRC channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat

I [requ= ested][0] the economic nodes to review different soft fork proposals and sh= are their opinion on 5 March 2025. Four entries were added to the [wiki][1]= and nobody has any objections to the proposals. Some organizations do not = want to publicly participate in this process to avoid politics and drama.
A [letter][2] was signed on 9 June 2025 by bitcoin developers to get = more core contributors involved in the review process. It was followed by a= [proposal][3] that makes a few changes to CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and combines= it with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK. Personally, I don't like that TEMPLATEHASH = is restricted to taproot and don't see anything wrong with CHECKTEMPLAT= EVERIFY. However, other developers may disagree with me and have different = opinion. I have created an IRC channel for workshops, meetings, activation,= etc.

We can finalize a meeting schedule so we can use the IRC chan= nel to move closer to covenants activation on bitcoin.

I think BIP 8= would be a better option for the next soft fork. [Previously][4], some sug= gestions were [rejected][5] because knots was not used by a large number of= users. However, things have changed since then and [~15%][6] of nodes use = knots for bitcoin.

[0]: http= s://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQAJ
[1]:= https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support
[2]: = https:= //ctv-csfs.com/
[3]: https:/= /groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAAJ
[4]: http= s://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5...@mail.gmail.com/
[5]: https://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a0473d0= 5d634946b4/dev/fd0
[6]:=C2=A0https://bitno= des.io/nodes/?q=3Dknots#network-snapshot

/dev/fd0
floppy disk= guy

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