public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
To: "Jorge Timón" <jtimon@jtimon.cc>,
	"Bitcoin Protocol Discussion"
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2022 10:11:45 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALeFGL19G7eLdM7J9dQrumdVTgo1OyoK6UbzF3oJMkGG55qLzg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABm2gDo0=psMAKY6Pvfp8b-RvAJdUabiESJpff_yzgwmy7cigQ@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2603 bytes --]

Hi AJ,

> Under *any* other circumstance, when they're used to activate a bad soft
fork, speedy trial and bip8 are the same. If a resistance method works
against bip8, it works against speedy trial; if it fails against speedy
trial, it fails against bip8.

IIRC one essential difference between ST (which is a variant of BIP9) and
BIP8 is that since there is no mandatory signaling during the lockin
period, you can't do a counter soft fork as easily. This is one of the
points that Luke mentioned to me that made clear the benefits of the
mandatory signaling. A variant of ST that does require mandatory signaling
may actually be something that can improve the process and give users a
more effective means of forking away from SF changes that they reject.

Keagan

On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 12:58 PM Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 2:14 PM Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2022 at 12:13:08PM +0100, Jorge Timón wrote:
>> > You're not even considering user resistance in your cases.
>>
>> Of course I am. Again:
>>
>
> No, you're relying on miners to stop bad proposals.
>
>
>> > > My claim is that for *any* bad (evil, flawed, whatever) softfork, then
>> > > attempting activation via bip8 is *never* superior to speedy trial,
>> > > and in some cases is worse.
>> > >
>> > > If I'm missing something, you only need to work through a single
>> example
>> > > to demonstrate I'm wrong, which seems like it ought to be easy... But
>> > > just saying "I disagree" and "I don't want to talk about that" isn't
>> > > going to convince anyone.
>>
>> The "some cases" where bip8 with lot=true is *worse* than speedy trial
>> is when miners correctly see that a bad fork is bad.
>>
>> Under *any* other circumstance, when they're used to activate a bad soft
>> fork, speedy trial and bip8 are the same. If a resistance method works
>> against bip8, it works against speedy trial; if it fails against speedy
>> trial, it fails against bip8.
>>
>
> You're wrong.
>
>
>> > Sorry for the aggressive tone, but I when people ignore some of my
>> points
>> > repeteadly, I start to wonder if they do it on purpose.
>>
>> Perhaps examine the beam in your own eye.
>>
>
> Yeah, whether you do that yourself or not: sorry, it's over.
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> aj
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4089 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2022-04-25 16:12 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 53+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-03-11  0:12 [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial Russell O'Connor
2022-03-11  0:28 ` Luke Dashjr
2022-03-11  5:41   ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-11 12:19 ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-11 13:47   ` Russell O'Connor
2022-03-11 14:04     ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-12 13:34       ` Russell O'Connor
2022-03-12 17:52         ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-17 12:18           ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-23 22:34           ` Kate Salazar
2022-03-15 17:21         ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-03-17  4:17           ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-18 18:36           ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-17 12:08         ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-17 15:38           ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-18 23:01             ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-21  3:41               ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-21 15:56                 ` vjudeu
2022-03-22 15:19                   ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-22 15:45                     ` Eric Voskuil
2022-03-22 16:37                     ` vjudeu
2022-03-19 16:43             ` vjudeu
2022-03-15 15:45       ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-17 14:04         ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-22 23:49           ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-24 18:30             ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-26  1:45               ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-28  8:31                 ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-30  4:21                   ` Anthony Towns
2022-04-08  9:58                     ` Jorge Timón
2022-04-11 13:05                       ` Anthony Towns
2022-04-24 11:13                         ` Jorge Timón
2022-04-24 12:14                           ` Anthony Towns
2022-04-24 12:44                             ` Jorge Timón
2022-04-25 16:11                               ` Keagan McClelland [this message]
2022-04-25 17:00                                 ` Anthony Towns
2022-04-25 17:26                                   ` Keagan McClelland
2022-04-26  5:42                                     ` Anthony Towns
2022-04-26 13:05                                       ` Erik Aronesty
2022-04-27  2:35                                         ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-11 16:26     ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-17 11:32       ` Jorge Timón
2022-03-11 11:14 pushd
2022-03-12 17:11 pushd
2022-03-17 14:34 pushd
2022-03-26 12:59 pushd
2022-03-30 10:34 pushd
2022-03-30 20:10 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-30 21:14   ` pushd
2022-03-31  4:31     ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-31 14:19       ` pushd
2022-03-31 15:34         ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-31 15:55           ` pushd

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=CALeFGL19G7eLdM7J9dQrumdVTgo1OyoK6UbzF3oJMkGG55qLzg@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com \
    --cc=aj@erisian.com.au \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=jtimon@jtimon.cc \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox