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From: Benedict Chan <bencxr@fragnetics.com>
To: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 16:42:42 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALqmWPC8PdSPS3chhnjBaTixrvvg0VrEaXzd3OvbXifkMs0DUw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <D161F6BB-BFB1-4B9F-B024-D60A170F393C@gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mainstream usage of cryptocurrency will be enabled primarily by direct
>> party-to-party contract negotiation…with the use of the blockchain primarily
>> as a dispute resolution mechanism. The block size isn’t about scaling but
>> about supply and demand of finite resources. As demand for block space
>> increases, we can address it either by increasing computational resources
>> (block size) or by increasing fees. But to do the former we need a way to
>> offset the increase in cost by making sure that those who contribute said
>> resources have incentive to do so.’
>
>
> I should also point out, improvements in hardware and network infrastructure
> can also reduce costs…and we could very well have a model where resource
> requirements can be increased as technology improves. However, currently,
> the computational cost of validation is clearly growing far more quickly
> than the cost of computational resources is going down. There are
> 7,000,000,000 people in the world. Payment networks in the developed world
> already regularly handle thousands of transactions a second. Even with
> highly optimized block propagation, pruning, and signature validation, we’re
> still many orders shy of being able to satisfy demand. To achieve mainstream
> adoption, we’ll have to pass through a period of quasi-exponential growth in
> userbase (until the market saturates…or until the network resources run
> out). Unless we’re able to achieve a validation complexity of O(polylog n)
> or better, it’s not a matter of having a negative attitude about the
> prospects…it’s just math. Whether we have 2MB or 20MB or 100MB blocks (even
> assuming the above mentioned optimizations and that the computational
> resources exist and are willing to handle it) we will not be able to satisfy
> demand if we insist on requiring global validation for all transactions.
>

Scaling the network will come in the form of a combination of many
optimizations. Just because we do not know for sure how to eventually
serve 7 billion people does not mean we should make decisions on
global validation that impact our ability to serve the current set of
users.

Also, blocking a change because it's "more important to address issues
such as..." other improvements will further slow down the discussion.
I believe an increase will not prevent the development of other
improvements that we need - in contrast, the sooner we can get over
the limit (which, as you agree, needs to be changed at some point),
the sooner we can get back to work.

>
> On Jul 23, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon.cc> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 9:52 PM, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> Running a node certainly has real-world costs that shouldn't be ignored.
> There are plenty of advocates who argue that Bitcoin should strive to keep
> it feasible for the average user to run their own node (as opposed to
> Satoshi's vision of beefy servers in data centers.) My impression is that
> even most of these advocates agree that it will be acceptable to eventually
> increase block sizes as resources become faster and cheaper because it won't
> be 'pricing out' the average user from running their own node. If this is
> the case, it seems to me that we have a problem given that there is no
> established baseline for the acceptable performance / hardware cost
> requirements to run a node. I'd really like to see further clarification
> from these advocates around the acceptable cost of running a node and how we
> can measure the global reduction in hardware and bandwidth costs in order to
> establish a baseline that we can use to justify additional resource usage by
> nodes.
>
>
> Although I don't have a concrete proposals myself, I agree that
> without having any common notion of what the "minimal target hardware"
> looks like, it is very difficult to discuss other things that depend
> on that.
> If there's data that shows that a 100 usd raspberry pi with a 1 MB
> connection in say, India (I actually have no idea about internet
> speeds there) size X is a viable full node, then I don't think anybody
> can reasonably oppose to rising the block size to X, and such a
> hardfork can perfectly be uncontroversial.
> I'm exaggerating ultra-low specifications, but it's just an example to
> illustrate your point.
> There was a thread about formalizing such "minimum hardware
> requirements", but I think the discussion simply finished there:
> - Let's do this
> - Yeah, let's do it
> - +1, let's have concrete values, I generally agree.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>


  reply	other threads:[~2015-07-23 23:42 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 86+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <CAPg+sBgs-ouEMu=LOVCmOyCGwfM1Ygxooz0shyvAuHDGGZYfJw@mail.gmail.com>
2015-07-22 16:52 ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks Pieter Wuille
2015-07-22 17:18   ` Ross Nicoll
2015-07-22 17:32   ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-22 18:45     ` Bryan Cheng
2015-07-22 17:33   ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-22 18:01     ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-22 18:03     ` Alex Morcos
2015-07-22 18:24       ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-23 12:17         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 16:17           ` Tom Harding
2015-07-23 16:28             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-23 16:50               ` cipher anthem
2015-07-23 17:14                 ` Robert Learney
2015-07-23 18:21                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 18:47                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 17:43               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 18:10                 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-23 19:14                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:35                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-23 19:39                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:51                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:52                     ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-23 20:26                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 20:52                         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 23:42                           ` Benedict Chan [this message]
     [not found]                             ` <42BF7FEB-320F-43BE-B3D9-1D76CB8B9975@gmai>
2015-07-23 23:57                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:04                               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:20                                 ` Simon Liu
2015-07-24  0:22                                 ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:32                                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:38                                     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:45                                     ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:49                                       ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:53                                         ` Peter Todd
2015-07-24  1:03                                           ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:08                                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:25                                               ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:28                                                 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:37                                                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:42                                                   ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:55                                                     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  2:12                                                       ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin, Perceptions, and Expectations Raystonn .
2015-07-24  8:48                                                         ` Jonas Schnelli
2015-07-24  9:42                                                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24 14:37                                                             ` Vincent Truong
2015-07-25  2:18                                                               ` gb
2015-07-25 11:22                                                                 ` Slurms MacKenzie
2015-07-25 15:04                                                                 ` Thomas Kerin
2015-07-24  0:56                                       ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:05                                         ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-23 18:12               ` Slurms MacKenzie
2015-07-23 18:57                 ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-23 17:51             ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24  6:30               ` Tom Harding
2015-07-24  9:24                 ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24 22:50                   ` Tom Harding
2015-07-28 11:29                     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-28 11:32                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-28 16:44                       ` Tom Harding
2015-07-28 17:33                         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-22 19:17     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 21:43   ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-22 21:56     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 22:01       ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-22 22:09         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  1:53         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 22:30     ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-23  0:27   ` Tom Harding
2015-07-23  0:37     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  4:40   ` Edmund Edgar
2015-07-27 12:08   ` Peter Todd
2015-07-27 12:44     ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-22 22:40 Raystonn
2015-07-22 23:42 ` Cory Fields
2015-07-22 23:53   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  0:05     ` Cory Fields
2015-07-23  0:13       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  0:34         ` Cory Fields
2015-07-23  0:43           ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  7:24             ` Ross Nicoll
2015-07-23  0:49         ` Eric Voskuil
2015-07-23 18:12   ` Jorge Timón
     [not found] <BA7ACCE1-81B2-4AC1-B6DD-7A856FD27D52@gmail.com>
2015-07-23  8:24 ` Gareth Williams
2015-07-27 17:05 Alice Larson
2015-07-27 17:22 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-07-28  4:55   ` Wladimir J. van der Laan

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