From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4FwC-0001Y6-CR for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 21:59:32 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mout.perfora.net ([74.208.4.197]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1Z4FwA-0005vi-NN for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 21:59:32 +0000 Received: from mail-qk0-f172.google.com ([209.85.220.172]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MWyyA-1YYF4a3R4e-00VvxO for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 23:59:24 +0200 Received: by qkhq76 with SMTP id q76so44929933qkh.2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.22.130 with SMTP id 2mr53227881qkw.45.1434319164176; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.20.164 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Jun 2015 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <557DEA54.30200@AndySchroder.com> References: <557DEA54.30200@AndySchroder.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 23:59:24 +0200 Message-ID: From: Adam Back To: Andy Schroder Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:JpZhPc/jNaXjAFeYxhTTgQ/++exlIU5BICLPIHFH9UyYpe7s14I mjXIQY77qHCyCXBfXAxROyyGkEJxPf3RsDqdebZ9cTYE1g5HM388fTisbXuuF/pI/DlvcB3 Y9NXCjtIy6xWimapNeYgOHd1MUNwYBw2afKjQTKrMm6987llbL0iJt/+vekeoqHfZaegGTX E5Qda0+RCZIdj+CS3lRaQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:OxQ+Rd3EWPs=:mIQzih773cGNUYDzQ/Q9V3 cUP0oQAHlQl0cVnG9+pEnz/v9RjoWyHbS0LM/OwJuFqG3J4n4FrfJTrNGcPMvp19qPna5vv49 wIei3xCRO1unUigyiXSfJArwbLaXzVcc3dEGUKdvlvxGaLMwqI5ScqLFqOIY+MR6MUFqtC3iC Ob81kez0787briAIX5u9x5mMLVbS9DZzdtY/tZHUf42RvrFGTrbqXwvq5/hhVWMFKgH4/cZph EgX7VwJRNiDEn2AuEb4Iv8RW5PR47JqgXLEd6decfLNlIGh3Yd6YecJuv3CCj9eu2KFO3ubEG Yf5hEw5Je/9yAwDvKsIai2gmijGGIV7gayIWaiZyaCiq8RWE2xzRxdZ2Dijwl9eKXLZAHJYoK S0b+dRv6fHmsdKZYwJl0zW4IiJBREVDBVCDgxFgVFl2xlU+VDThvbnEJ+G1MlzFD6l2yg0wAd 6wf+bJSpoyJyGWYArqczyNFUEjYddnSzo7sb9apV/6g0UUI84lVrja5JspF+8U0yOXs/ZhP1S 4R5xH1N5p1cLasFiF/c1zoNH45b/KCldbLB0LHOyxdjqn0pFE1KeX+m3pAM04V224EbQBlTB4 aN29NekdPpo+A33oFebwA78ubJPNuOIkYADGHrEfslAle3tTmb6tnJnfMm9lU1LgWuhxVxOEq 8NlwtqxsDnpklfjIBUr6EghYlCq7BpTUrKJbscotx8xS++w== X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [74.208.4.197 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1Z4FwA-0005vi-NN Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 21:59:32 -0000 It might be as well to keep the archive but disable new posts as otherwise we create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on sourceforge. The list is also archived on mail-archive though. https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/ Adam On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder wrote: > Hello, > > I'd support moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also against > google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates that SourceFo= rge > is not playing nice on other issues and that moving this list shows their > behavior is being acknowledged. > > I understand your reason for wanting to delete the Source Forge account > (after reading the links). However, the only problem with that is that th= e > SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some early messages > from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after its inception, as well as this > mailing list even later on, it's nice to be able to review the archives. > SourceForge's interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm not s= ure > if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites like gmane or > mail-archive? Does anyone know? You mentioned importing the list archive = as > part of the migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from SourceFor= ge? > > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote: > > Discomfort with Sourceforge > > For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's > continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.=C3=82 Downloads were = moved > completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF > project account.=C3=82 The company's behavior and perceived stability ha= ve been > growing to be increasingly questionable. > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy= _ads_and_installer > > November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer > > https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/ > > May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads > > http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194 > > June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads. > > > When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most peop= le > agreed it would be a good idea to move.=C3=82 Someone always suggests Go= ogle > Groups as the replacement host.=C3=82 Google is quickly shot down as too > controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult > question as to who else should host it.=C3=82 Realizing this is not so s= imple, > discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up. > > > http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/19431= 27.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607 > > Somebody brought it up again this past week. > > > It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to contin= ue > to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t much t= hey could do to screw it > up.=C3=82 I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a gestu= re that > we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.=C3=82 There are also= some > benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to professionally > maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the content. > > > Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity > > > Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be > politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to > host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.= =C3=82 > For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the > inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and > dev list under their own name.=C3=82 Even if what they published was 100= % > technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our > dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances > and it would have easily gone nowhere. > > > I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was > approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be = a > generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build up= on > and use.=C3=82 We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that alre= ady host > various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the > Linux Foundation.=C3=82 Google is too controversial in this community, a= nd the > IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.=C3=82 The Linux Foun= dation > hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the Ope= n > Source industry considers them to be particularly objectionable.=C3=82 I= talked > with LF about the idea of hosting generic Bitcoin-related infrastructure > development lists.=C3=82 They agreed as OSS infrastructure dev is alread= y within > their charter, so early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting there= . > > > From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a gr= eat > fit.=C3=82 Why?=C3=82 While they are interested in supporting general o= pen source > development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.=C3=82 In addition = to > neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.=C3=82 They hav= e > full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailma= n > server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means mailing lists > would benefit from the improved archive browser.=C3=82 I am not personal= ly > familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-pro= fit > entity who will competently maintain and improve things like their Mailma= n > deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).=C3=82 It = seems > that LF would be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the > long-term. > > > To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.=C3= =82 The > LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity > should. > > > Proposed Action Plan > > > Discuss this openly within this community.=C3=82 Above is one example of= a great > neutral and competent host.=C3=82 If the technical leaders here can agre= e to > move to a particular neutral host then we do it. > > Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.=C3=82 We = import > the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user convenience= . > > http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ =C3=82 Kill bitcoin-list and > bitcoin-test.=C3=82 Very few people actually use it.=C3=82 Actually, le= t's delete > the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves = no > purpose and it only confuses people who find it.=C3=82 By deletion, nobo= dy has > to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or GIMP-type > hijacking? > > The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the > subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a tendency t= o > upset people. > > > Thoughts? > > > Warren Togami > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >