From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D342C00 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:45:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B0021AF for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:44:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ig0-f182.google.com ([209.85.213.182]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LrLdC-1aDqly31Su-0137k6 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:44:58 +0100 Received: by igbxm8 with SMTP id xm8so82457428igb.1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 04:44:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.92.41 with SMTP id cj9mr18181027igb.38.1450097098026; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 04:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.49.200 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 04:44:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3292B7BA-13A8-4BD9-AB08-4F5EBE534771@toom.im> References: <1449897228198.c655b3ae@Nodemailer> <3292B7BA-13A8-4BD9-AB08-4F5EBE534771@toom.im> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:44:57 +0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: From: Adam Back To: Jonathan Toomim Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:A6VxHDfx7AtQYKuI721i7PXSyiPY8zA2mElzMSRwFUySgdSmr8r GtIzeXGEPWofjTHFK2VMVgXDAkAt2dbn+ejfombxcuKM9+UdheUQGhoX0cET/bFJRLazMkP TE+SETOQG0uh8jTn5nDmFCY0efqEFqkGjLdm80vtFxgkRy81VBAxlQ9wwUkVoRpctAS9WDY lUvN+tmzv0D5Y8DceX+xw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:ITjrqp1MqFQ=:MZ5q1MIgC8LxAGdFBLXh9h rXycc1D079ctFrqN7F2OCJz/dY/InVYGRvxOvWhlErWaDuuuwMuif8cybOGrTCK+UZXdxFVov JdCEO4iCXweOjtet3Q2EmH8DJ2biWVIEiiv83v+4bWSRgOvDLlS2Kyfbq5l3r+3Qux0y5mrGK /+A0H8oJSwU8Y7qxwzSVqOefcXtf02CoHYe7ggVEDShZUU9rKwVssogfnw8eNU3SYfKli4AD2 JT077yiG+sh4BYJd3eXvaRlzU4+G0QvXAUFwDcN3CfRrXErYs13aVmrfJ2K7/luCSy1JwGE2i q2QJvNy2poVdVpX/DwjwB36i7Wpl4dvtaPHF8NSFZXE/rmnHOh0QsOl656oyboKplU/Vdd4Mg JHRDD2IddQvhmP1goj1ADSQv6jzBhWmX4FitUsBVWJ/SolWNM728qYQqWuD2mF9X366I7AR5d ZGiNBz42/6vo6XgpB2baJ9xU2ofBKiDh3i2TaQZ67l0UntPk+g3pqnRaIO1pWfM2ii9rfH4Bo oU9M6cCqTeee46VWJ9/HQjykVXUS0f7PiiLZ1tGj7CeUqc0ThXEYVVTPZ9phis755tndN8E43 Qe2mFWlwQk4Iyb+fFqr2HuETyTpyZlLNh3wFRsQhiokxaIqx2rtZOj6yA2SW19RDExgQdTcCW dvFH/YeD27hdkEB7PtJzZK6Bvy53mbsBlbkx14mriDb64VQlwWwE+dr+ocdCO9VZVu70+NQgU lQ1HjThtoGFA9/Ch X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Capacity increases for the Bitcoin system. X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:45:00 -0000 I think someone, maybe Pieter, commented on this relay issue that it would be likely very transitory, as a lot of stuff would be fairly quickly upgraded in practice from previous deployment experience, and I think anyway there is a huge excess connectivity and capacity in the p2p network vs having a connected network of various versions, and supporting SPV client load (SPV load is quite low relative to capacity, even one respectable node can support a large number of SPV clients). (Ie so two classes of network node and connectivity wouldnt be a problem in practice even if it did persist; also the higher capacity better run nodes are more likely to upgrade due to having more clued in power user, miner, pool or company operators). Maybe someone more detailed knowledge could clarify further. Adam On 14 December 2015 at 19:21, Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev wrote: > This means that a server supporting SW might only hear of the tx data and > not get the signature data for some transactions, depending on how the re= lay > rules worked (e.g. if the SW peers had higher minrelaytxfee settings than > the legacy peers). This would complicate fast block relay code like IBLTs= , > since we now have to check to see that the recipient has both the tx data > and the witness/sig data. > > The same issue might happen with block relay if we do SW as a soft fork. = A > SW node might see a block inv from a legacy node first, and might start > downloading the block from that node. This block would then be marked as > in-flight, and the witness data might not get downloaded. This shouldn't = be > too hard to fix by creating an inv for the witness data as a separate > object, so that a node could download the block from e.g. Peer 1 and the > segwit data from Peer 2. > > Of course, the code would be simpler if we did this as a hard fork and we > could rely on everyone on the segwit fork supporting the segwit data. > Although maybe we want to write the interfaces in a way that supports som= e > nodes not downloading the segwit data anyway, just because not every node > will want that data. > > I haven't had time to read sipa's code yet. I apologize for talking out o= f a > position of ignorance. For anyone who has, do you feel like sharing how i= t > deals with these network relay issues? > > By the way, since this thread is really about SegWit and not about any ot= her > mechanism for increasing Bitcoin capacity, perhaps we should rename it > accordingly? > > > On Dec 12, 2015, at 11:18 PM, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > A segwit supporting server would be required to support relaying segwit > transactions, although a non-segwit server could at least inform a wallet= of > segwit txns observed, even if it doesn't relay all information necessary = to > validate. > > Non segwit servers and wallets would continue operations as if nothing ha= d > occurred. > > If this means essentially that a soft fork deployment of SegWit will requ= ire > SPV wallet servers to change their logic (or risk not being able to send > payments) then it does seem to me that a hard fork to deploy this non > controversial change is not only cleaner (on the data structure side) but > safer in terms of the potential to affect the user experience. > > > =E2=80=94 Regards, > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >