From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60EEB8E3 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 23:06:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.196]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA0891C3 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 23:06:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qg0-f42.google.com ([209.85.192.42]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M6Tdt-1Ye6ko0AmJ-00yPEt for ; Sat, 08 Aug 2015 01:06:29 +0200 Received: by qgj62 with SMTP id 62so59805900qgj.2 for ; Fri, 07 Aug 2015 16:06:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.93.72 with SMTP id c66mr1967198qge.32.1438988788211; Fri, 07 Aug 2015 16:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.226.68 with HTTP; Fri, 7 Aug 2015 16:06:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2586092.4ZtH253X8E@coldstorage> References: <2586092.4ZtH253X8E@coldstorage> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 00:06:28 +0100 Message-ID: From: Adam Back To: Thomas Zander Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:8RUyrC9P7wQ8iu9vxzT4HHJ85s7fUeA+GKqrwkw/1kGBFZTnJW8 GQ+x1hFWI9k4Ve7otGvqw2tTwSVnRIGEDJi4bPq4MwWMADLFRAoMujU/4e+dFwUFGu/VnAn lF/N+4N5BN9OYESiOLy8liM2lqUSCggYa2PJBHJfzU9iuieuOksrx+wLhOvRrYHio/A4Kjp boc3pwaJC7jISxU5nWDuA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:4rKkVpuEWSA=:BdzHSTUyjp1BjxkiT6u02P xwljI+Zi5/wqLBNyE9CUzvX76kVQytU+6Y2voABu4Vocq1oiZrwC6LmBX4Inq7ML93tob+E9h Uk32Qsca4Sk+1JIk/4D/hRKAox+2omISbsHdTtxP5WPoSF48iiBzkzmPDYgx5tBWa1MzRCLHk szY1LZosl6bcPCNabMSi4HGz5Py0g/LMXty595J0vv5ugIlOusq7uhr4x0VuLxOC4CMdDENzH IzWiqhaJSh31OHTn2gPtksGq6eSn+iJarPfoSN95PTC1RolYCIrR/f+DYNBsLozROnFjReW8I x+1gxxSkvT1UvH3+9sxhrvO6l2Zd+fXsQVjSigpgqn0a7oVrdyQM8c2m5ha0oX9mmrlQo3mHd yc/LfHF1FDvoVf1juf/qd6wXGPL/xLU85Ej+qVhygoN3E7ZuWOmWalD4kQ+5kV57p0D/dyfnD 29nWUzgFbyGh81+BYYREMF6KWBy14T8GSPSTLo9MTkw16Sg6qTna1lcM8qICPPKg7aDBBaAPt +GBy8jGKs8fRC6hM5BWUUKT3znVB1JkT02AEZsQOFhh5JC6u1F19wpiKdKTglmOwJST2wz7sn qX8eu1TmNQyYbSv11IcnGM2IS+//SljA08TH1qERRnj+sY+deUpaf1QNE1cfSkrXT2BV64uOa uR2/5/kfc1pqnPb+RuQBD1KwGH/fsev44Yk7Thszs+HFOtO02R0oeJN0GRTCH9XmBxMLlXZGu JhqRtPejzlskioCD X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 23:06:30 -0000 Please try to focus on constructive technical comments. On 7 August 2015 at 23:12, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev wrote: > What will the backlash be when people here that are pushing for "off-chain- > transactions" fail to produce a properly working alternative, which > essentially means we have to say NO to more users. But > 99% of Bitcoin transactions are already off-chain. There are multiple competing companies offering consumer & retail service with off-chain settlement. I wasnt clear but it seemed in your previous mail that you seemed to say you dont mind trusting other people with your money, and so presumably you are OK using these services, and so have no problem? > At this time and this size of bitcoin community, my personal experience (and > I've been part of many communities) saying NO to new customers Who said no to anything? The systems of off-chain transfer already exist and are by comparison to Bitcoins protocol simple and rapid to adapt and scale. Indications are that we can even do off-chain at scale with Bitcoin similar trust-minimisation with lightning, and duplex payment channels; and people are working on that right now. I think it would be interesting and useful for someone, with an interest in low trust, high scale transactions, to work on and propose an interoperability standard and API for such off-chain services to be accessed by wallets, and perhaps periodic on-chain inter-service netting. Adam