From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CDBA483 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 04:05:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8921D7C for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 04:05:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qg0-f45.google.com ([209.85.192.45]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LfAKc-1YVv0y3yOG-00oli7 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 06:05:37 +0200 Received: by qgii95 with SMTP id i95so16879404qgi.2 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.141.23.199 with SMTP id z190mr2371825qhd.34.1438229135979; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.226.68 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <543015348.4948849.1438178962054.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55B959A2.9020402@sky-ip.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 21:05:35 -0700 Message-ID: From: Adam Back To: Adam Back Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:64zbzKJthClbcuF+fsnkLilrlQMlfWl+VY8IzJEgU9QnZR5LC0W /SBs4JgO1PxvyNsNn/q7ApyihlWetWcqioqoCl8HVH9nta8eS+v6G8YEC2Hk9+kn8CA9S+X zxuUAvq+5Or0dtr64ovFNr7V5vZ/eZUOK5EhYebr4xMnPUyVrkn0H+YCqbyno0H5fHYqsH3 p1CDywzIBjY7druqPvRkg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:D+BK2Jq51cY=:iUVju0nWIICEUrbXc5/mKx s3Kcr/rfqsWlxUyHp+SDaXkPDZbNXUlVOril8HjC99wYFGhzAoiFps37vLkYnRhiK13welFEA 5AbleN0Dfg1Jl6ILp8xqCLLF7cNnlyEY3Lfw858Lj6Xz4IpcDuoqLiNCwSJgndRmHit+twuVl KrO39Qtd06/H9d5ZOFOjHvc5voUsKEm4XKUtYoJMgOOxQHBzM/OWgQS88qsfU/RI6od2/36/r VaoLC88LHNJMj9+rGTKfGgPHotjt2oZyPASfqqAUvB9MkpUNWR1z5xXSB1fbAp1Ru/6J7pb0w YKAYtO3rCAvGvXZfOBVmk6Y0rloV9/oiFjJisLGAK2RL52vIrPeNqk1nJL4W2a3esEfaTw19m neDbapFKtmEqC1WwAWnpl8Ux1gKtsnpAsrpPxv+A9wFMdVn80i6A2dpwo/3yieTP9ipntmSzO t6kdHayy8HVCGX4LWzn8PYsvbYQYYnUqAKiaNs5/FyaXyVn2GH9J6bw3tBycBk2LqZ90WveJk jMifoFUxH+MDoPNdpxagiTSntjPZlmxT26ykGomX6JQR8604lmlT2ZvcJK3sxMOCDsHJFQJ17 dvqdb8HVfwVYjohk86R72isMeOw6R9GPEsvmxEhrLBYVdYbbdn0Uo4Vgq14QlBe2TWVUzXcCY eu9SwMNF54fyUHGmFMuqtpIdFpL79EwFLX1bC1OGZ97vs6w== X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] =?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A_Personal_opinion_on_the_f?= =?utf-8?q?ee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?= X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 04:05:38 -0000 btw the fact that mining is (or can be) anonymous also makes oligopoly or cartel behaviour likely unstable. Miners can break ranks and process transactions others wish to block, or with lower fees than a cartel would like to charge, without detection. Anonymous mining is a feature and helps ensure policy neutrality. This is all overlaid by the 51% attack - if a coherent cartel arose that could maintain 51% and had enough mutual self-interest to make that stable, they could attack miners bypassing their cartel policies, by orphaning their blocks. This is partly why mining decentralisation is important. Also that is an overt act which is very detectable and could lead to technical counter-measures by the users, who are in ultimately in control of the protocol. So there is some game theory suggesting it would be inadvisable for miners to be overt in cartel attacks. Non overt attacks cant prevent anonymous under cutting of cartel desired fee minimums. Adam On 29 July 2015 at 21:00, Adam Back wrote: > On 29 July 2015 at 20:41, Ryan Butler via bitcoin-dev > wrote: >> Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market? Isn't every >> miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance >> algorithm? > > The assumption is that wont work because any miner can break ranks and > do so profitably, so to expect otherwise is to expect oligopoly > behaviour which is the sort of antithesis of a decentralised mining > system. It's in fact a similar argument as to why decentralisation of > mining provides policy neutrality: some miner somewhere with some > hashrate will process your transaction even if some other miners are > by policy deciding not to mine it. It is also similar reason why free > transactions are processed today - policies vary and this is good for > ensuring many types of transaction get processed. > > Adam