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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 98e67ed59e1d1-30e33401c53si41449a91.1.2025.05.14.01.28.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 May 2025 01:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of decker.christian@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b; Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3d96d16b369so60103085ab.0 for ; Wed, 14 May 2025 01:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVMA0y0I9IMXG9fXisjCYvZqhjDCKHRlRL1rwqI99CnYpEU9IdRhsf2ve4gliOK9BxA4FgiDj0bfcjM@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsH4GSor05GW0h57sLVEqH1ppU0ajfC6tyEiOSNlpdUfzvhwf53RiSjkGqsE4+ TSJ5sH1fOuqPRaETaYG+rTVVOAXFf43lJHL1k+6ZvFO9YACeW2GPc88NmiyCA+MN2qSSlU4ZDYw l60R04nrzPiuZfq2qEXQtx/9NhI+JidD36 X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:4509:20b0:3db:754c:63b with SMTP id e9e14a558f8ab-3db754c0b07mr707675ab.12.1747211310048; Wed, 14 May 2025 01:28:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Christian Decker Date: Wed, 14 May 2025 10:27:54 +0200 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvIrDd-SXO4CF0ujtJlu8I1cngtUSityvH61FkNhOMoIEJ4y_9e_yxItc8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [Proposal] 64-bit arithmetic in Script To: Chris Stewart Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Habov=C5=A1tiak?= , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: Decker.Christian@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=lnmasf4N; spf=pass (google.com: domain of decker.christian@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=decker.christian@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Hi Chris, I was contacted by other ML members pointing out that the GSR may not have announced on the ML. I was not aware, and would not have brought it up as a competing effort in such a case. Apologies for the noise, and I hope that an update on the idea and current status of the GSR will be published eventually :-) Regards, Christian On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 10:24=E2=80=AFAM Chris Stewart wrote: > > Hi Christian, > > Thank you for the interest in this proposal! > > I=E2=80=99d like to invite you, Rusty, or any other contributors to provi= de an update to the list on the status of GSR. The most recent public writi= ng I=E2=80=99m aware of is Rusty=E2=80=99s blog post, which is now around 1= 8 months old. Are there any newer materials =E2=80=94 such as additional po= sts, WIP BIPs, or code =E2=80=94 that we could review or experiment with? E= ven rough drafts would be helpful for prototyping and discussion. > > I=E2=80=99m not opposed to the broader goals of GSR, but I do think it=E2= =80=99s a bit ambitious. That=E2=80=99s partly why I=E2=80=99ve focused my = efforts on isolating what I believe is the most requested feature: 64-bit p= recision to enable amount locks. > > >arbitrary sized integers > > It would be helpful to see some concrete examples of opcodes that would r= equire arbitrary precision, but wouldn=E2=80=99t be achievable with 64-bit = arithmetic. Looking at the Elements project, there are a couple of examples= =E2=80=94 ECMULSCALARVERIFY and TWEAKVERIFY =E2=80=94 which operate on 256= -bit stack arguments. Notably, these opcodes don=E2=80=99t support composit= ion with existing arithmetic opcodes like OP_ADD or OP_SUB; they simply ver= ify cryptographic conditions. I would argue they do not actually require su= pporting more precision in Script as the stack arguments aren't parsed into= CScriptNum. > > It could be useful to have a list of these potential opcodes that could b= e enabled in a single place to give other protocol developers an idea of wh= at is enabled by arbitrary precision. > > >maybe you could join that effort for your use-cases too? > > Where can one go to join the effort? > > -Chris > > > On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 6:45=E2=80=AFAM Christian Decker wrote: >> >> Hi Chris, >> >> quite an interesting proposal, but much like Martin I wonder if we >> shouldn't go beyond. For comparison Rusty's GSR comprises arbitrary >> sized integers and their associated operations, with fine-grained >> accounting of operations based on the operands size, so scripts stay >> performant and manageable. >> >> That proposal is much further along in both design and analysis, so >> maybe you could join that effort for your use-cases too? >> >> Cheers, >> Christian >> >> On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 11:06=E2=80=AFAM Chris Stewart >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Martin >> > >> > Thanks for your interest in the topic. >> > >> > >It mentions upgrading existing opcodes, which is a hardfork, not soft= fork, at least without using a different leaf version. But it also mention= s OP_SUCCESSX which are different opcodes >> > >> > I view 64-bit arithmetic as a feature of a wider set of consensus chan= ges. Here is what I think the most likely deployment story is >> > >> > >This proposal could be deployed in conjunction with any of the new op= code proposals in the Motivation section using Tapscript's OP_SUCCESSx sema= ntics.[18] >> > >> > The opcodes mentioned in the motivation section are OP_{IN,OUT}_AMOUNT= , OP_VAULT, OP_CHECKCONTRACTVERIFY, OP_CTV >> > >> > As an example, this proposal could (hypothetically) be deployed in con= junction with OP_CCV. OP_CCV would take advantage of the OP_SUCCESSx semant= ics allowing us to redefine existing opcode's (OP_ADD,OP_SUB, etc) semantic= s. >> > >> > There=E2=80=99s been some discussion around deploying OP_CTV via a NOP= opcode instead of OP_SUCCESSx. I think that would be a poor choice, as it = wouldn=E2=80=99t allow new Script features to be shipped in parallel with t= he new opcode. >> > >> > I found this StackExchange post helpful in thinking through various de= ployment strategies for new Tapscript-based consensus upgrades. >> > >> > >I'd also love to see analysis why stop at 64 bits and not go all the = way to 256 which could be useful for cryptography. >> > >> > In my view, there=E2=80=99s still a lot of uncertainty about cryptogra= phic features being added to Script. There's increasing discussion around q= uantum computing, which raises the question of how much numerical precision= we may eventually need. I'm not opposed to extending precision further=E2= =80=94but if we go beyond 64 bits, why stop at 256? With OP_SUCCESSx, arbit= rary precision becomes a real option. >> > >> > I chose 64 bits because it covers what=E2=80=99s needed for amount loc= ks. If someone strongly believes that 64 bits isn't enough, I=E2=80=99d wel= come a competing BIP and would be happy to review and discuss it with the a= uthor. >> > >> > >Anyway, pushing amounts on the stack would be great. Though I'm surpr= ised you're only proposing the sum, not individual outputs. Why? >> > >> > Good question=E2=80=94and slightly out of scope for this BIP. Script d= oesn=E2=80=99t support looping, so it=E2=80=99s not straightforward to iter= ate over and sum all elements unless the transaction structure (i.e., numbe= r of inputs or outputs) is known in advance. >> > You can measure the number of stack elements with OP_DEPTH, but there= =E2=80=99s no way to write something like OP_ADD [num-stack-elements-from-O= P_DEPTH] to sum them all. I=E2=80=99m definitely open to hearing other appr= oaches, though. >> > >> > -Chris >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 2:32=E2=80=AFPM Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> the proposal seems to be quite confused about how it's going to do th= at. It mentions upgrading existing opcodes, which is a hardfork, not soft f= ork, at least without using a different leaf version. But it also mentions = OP_SUCCESSX which are different opcodes. I think it needs some analysis. (l= eaf version seems better intuitively) >> >> >> >> I'd also love to see analysis why stop at 64 bits and not go all the = way to 256 which could be useful for cryptography. >> >> >> >> Anyway, pushing amounts on the stack would be great. Though I'm surpr= ised you're only proposing the sum, not individual outputs. Why? >> >> >> >> Good luck! >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> D=C5=88a po 12. 5. 2025, 14:21 Chris Stewart nap=C3=ADsal(a): >> >>> >> >>> This soft fork proposal extends the range of numeric operands in Scr= ipt from -2^31+1 to 2^31-1, to -2^63+1 to 2^63-1. It further expands the re= sult range for arithmetic operations from -2^63 to 2^63-1, to -2^127 to 2^1= 27- 1. >> >>> >> >>> All existing opcodes[1] that interpret stack elements as numbers are= upgraded to support 64-bit parameters. >> >>> >> >>> The existing number encoding format[2] and arithmetic semantics[3] f= rom the original Bitcoin implementation are preserved, while enhancing the = supported precision. >> >>> >> >>> https://github.com/Christewart/bips/blob/2025-03-17-64bit-pt2/bip-XX= XX.mediawiki >> >>> >> >>> The purpose for this BIP is to lay the groundwork for introducing am= ounts into Script. This document takes no opinion on how this is done. >> >>> >> >>> I've prototyped a few different proposals now introducing amount loc= ks into Script[0][1] and feel like this proposal is stable enough for serio= us review. >> >>> >> >>> -Chris >> >>> >> >>> [0] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/4?u=3Dchris_s= tewart_5 >> >>> >> >>> [1] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/5?u=3Dchris_s= tewart_5 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, se= nd an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >>> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitc= oindev/CAGL6%2BmH%2B9iq5_SR-Fa5zVZRoTpHasX7xoprYeJZRd5D80J1GqA%40mail.gmail= .com. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoi= ndev/CAGL6%2BmHv%2Bkn6SU9pf0Rz3FmM5OfcsmEtqGBRJ7Upb-b0MofS5A%40mail.gmail.c= om. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. 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