From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1VdzNi-0004y6-0P for Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:26:34 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.128.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.128.180; envelope-from=frankf44@gmail.com; helo=mail-ve0-f180.google.com; Received: from mail-ve0-f180.google.com ([209.85.128.180]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1VdzNg-0000uO-MO for Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:26:33 +0000 Received: by mail-ve0-f180.google.com with SMTP id oy12so3276842veb.25 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 01:26:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.33.147 with SMTP id r19mr1159003vdi.37.1383729987113; Wed, 06 Nov 2013 01:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.165.201 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Nov 2013 01:26:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5279D49D.5050807@jerviss.org> References: <5279D49D.5050807@jerviss.org> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 03:26:27 -0600 Message-ID: From: Frank F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d064a58d7be04ea7ebeb4 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: doubleclick.net] -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (frankf44[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (frankf44[at]gmail.com) 1.2 MISSING_HEADERS Missing To: header 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1VdzNg-0000uO-MO Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] we can all relax now X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 09:26:34 -0000 --20cf307d064a58d7be04ea7ebeb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The problem with academics is that they don't have to worry about the real world. They get paid to publish things, not to be helpful to society. On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:33 PM, kjj wrote: > One of the things that really gets me going is when someone devises a > model, tests it against itself, and then pretends that they've learned > something about the real world. > > Naturally, the Selfish Mining paper is exactly this sort of nonsense. > Their model is one with no latency, and one where the attacker has total > visibility across the network. An iterated FSM is not a suitable > simulation of the bitcoin system. The bitcoin network does not have > states, and to the extent that you can pretend that we do, you can't > simulate transitions between them with static probabilities. > > The authors understand this deep down inside, even though they didn't > work out the implications. They handwave the issue by assuming a total > sybil attack, and in true academic spirit, they don't realize that the > condition necessary for the attack is far, far worse than the attack > itself. > > Greg said he'd like to run some simulations, and I'm thinking about it > too. Unfortunately, he is busy all week, and I'm lazy (and also busy > for most of tomorrow). > > If neither of us get to it first, I'm willing to pitch in 1 BTC as a > bounty for building a general bitcoin network simulator framework. The > simulator should be able to account for latency between nodes, and > ideally within a node. It needs to be able to simulate an attacker that > owns varying fractions of the network, and make decisions based only on > what the attacker actually knows. It needs to be able to simulate this > "attack" and should be generic enough to be easily modified for other > crazy schemes. > > (Bounty offer is serious, but expires in one year [based on the earliest > timestamp that my mail server puts on this email], and /may/ be subject > to change if the price on any reputable exchange breaks 1000 USD per BTC > in that period.) > > Basically, the lack of a decent network simulator is what allowed this > paper to get press. If the author had been able to see the importance > of the stuff he was ignoring, we wouldn't be wasting so much time > correcting him (and sadly the reporters that have no way to check his > claims). > > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=324413.msg3495663#msg3495663 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > November Webinars for C, C++, Fortran Developers > Accelerate application performance with scalable programming models. > Explore > techniques for threading, error checking, porting, and tuning. Get the most > from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and > register > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60136231&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- *MONEY IS OVER!* IF YOU WANT IT ===================================================== The causes of my servitude can be traced to the tyranny of money. -Serj Tankian --20cf307d064a58d7be04ea7ebeb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The problem with academics is that they don't have to = worry about the real world. They get paid to publish things, not to be help= ful to society.


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:33 PM, kjj <bitcoin-devel@jerviss.org> wrote:
One of the things that really gets me going is when someone devises a
model, tests it against itself, and then pretends that they've learned<= br> something about the real world.

Naturally, the Selfish Mining paper is exactly this sort of nonsense.
Their model is one with no latency, and one where the attacker has total visibility across the network. =A0An iterated FSM is not a suitable
simulation of the bitcoin system. =A0The bitcoin network does not have
states, and to the extent that you can pretend that we do, you can't simulate transitions between them with static probabilities.

The authors understand this deep down inside, even though they didn't work out the implications. =A0They handwave the issue by assuming a total sybil attack, and in true academic spirit, they don't realize that the<= br> condition necessary for the attack is far, far worse than the attack itself= .

Greg said he'd like to run some simulations, and I'm thinking about= it
too. =A0Unfortunately, he is busy all week, and I'm lazy (and also busy=
for most of tomorrow).

If neither of us get to it first, I'm willing to pitch in 1 BTC as a bounty for building a general bitcoin network simulator framework. The
simulator should be able to account for latency between nodes, and
ideally within a node. =A0It needs to be able to simulate an attacker that<= br> owns varying fractions of the network, and make decisions based only on
what the attacker actually knows. =A0It needs to be able to simulate this "attack" and should be generic enough to be easily modified for o= ther
crazy schemes.

(Bounty offer is serious, but expires in one year [based on the earliest timestamp that my mail server puts on this email], and /may/ be subject
to change if the price on any reputable exchange breaks 1000 USD per BTC in that period.)

Basically, the lack of a decent network simulator is what allowed this
paper to get press. =A0If the author had been able to see the importance of the stuff he was ignoring, we wouldn't be wasting so much time
correcting him (and sadly the reporters that have no way to check his
claims).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D324413.= msg3495663#msg3495663



---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
November Webinars for C, C++, Fortran Developers
Accelerate application performance with scalable programming models. Explor= e
techniques for threading, error checking, porting, and tuning. Get the most=
from the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and regist= er
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D60136231&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment



--
MONEY IS OVER!
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0IF YOU WANT= IT
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
The causes of my servitude can be traced to the tyranny of mon= ey.
-Serj Tankian
--20cf307d064a58d7be04ea7ebeb4--