From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WbuX3-0007eZ-O5 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:23:53 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; envelope-from=erik.garrison@gmail.com; helo=mail-ob0-f170.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f170.google.com ([209.85.214.170]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WbuX0-0001R7-A2 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:23:53 +0000 Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id vb8so2222574obc.29 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:23:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.51.69 with SMTP id i5mr27264795oeo.17.1398011024934; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.178.7 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.178.7 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5353ECDF.6090903@gmail.com> References: <3A69904F-0A3D-42E9-9DE7-067874E710BB@bitsofproof.com> <5353ECDF.6090903@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 18:23:44 +0200 Message-ID: From: Erik Garrison To: Alan Reiner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (erik.garrison[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WbuX0-0001R7-A2 Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:23:53 -0000 --001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp of orders of magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill. People are very likely to learn what mBTC and =C2=B5BTC are simply because they risk their = money if they do not. This is not a bad thing and I think stands only to help people who learn about these monikers for orders of magnitude this way. Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is sure to develop in due course. Promoting an already-overloaded term that could just as easily be applied colloquially to refer to a small amount of value in any currency seems problematic. I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options). I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded. Though, I think we could get away with it. (Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill the right visuals...) We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some work. We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right away. I'd *prefer* we get some commitments from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for it. I'm happy to lead that and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it. -Alan On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote: Here is an earlier reference to bits: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/ms= g04248.html I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits : https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/ms= g04264.html and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1 bit https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/ms= g04256.html Regards, Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille wrote: I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes to just one client. I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before. On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem with them. They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would no= t need to care of finance's or people's current customs. The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people already use wallets other than the core. Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer. BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jef= f Garzik's. Regards, Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding wrote: The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they are using is the correct one, The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and ther= e are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need to use such things. people WILL send 1000x more or less than intended if we go down this road, Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3 dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh, they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*. I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC) equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis. I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal. Rob ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/= lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --001a11c300de888c0604f77bce1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp= of orders of magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill.=C2= =A0 People are very likely to learn what mBTC and =C2=B5BTC are simply beca= use they risk their money if they do not.=C2=A0 This is not a bad thing and= I think stands only to help people who learn about these monikers for orde= rs of magnitude this way.

Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is sure to= develop in due course.=C2=A0 Promoting an already-overloaded term that cou= ld just as easily be applied colloquially to refer to a small amount of val= ue in any currency seems problematic.

=20 =20 =20
I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would= like to do anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to promote changing the default units.=C2=A0 And I'm happy to integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).=C2=A0 I'm not so convinced about the "b= its" name though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded.=C2=A0 Though, I think we could get away with it.=C2=A0

(Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in microb<= /b>itcoin) when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill the right visuals...)

We started integrating alternative units into Armory.=C2=A0 But, of course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We want to put it in but not necessarily= change the default right away.=C2=A0 I'd prefer we get some commitm= ents from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for it.=C2=A0 I'm happy to lead that and make it default as long as I&#= 39;m not the only one in the world doing it.

-Alan



On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
=20
Here is an earlier reference to bits:


I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :
and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1 bit


Regard= s,

Tamas Blu= mmer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:

I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
to just one client.

I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" p= roposal here before.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com> wrote:
People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
with them.
They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would not
need to care of finance's or people's current customs.<= br>
The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
already use wallets other than the core.

Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jeff
Garzik's.

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bit= sofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding &= lt;rob.golding@astutium.com> wrote:

The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
are using is the correct one,


The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and there
are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those= that feel they need
to use such things.

people WILL send 1000x more or less than
intended if we go down this road,


Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to= tens of thousands - Not
once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less th= an intended - oh,
they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

Rob


---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to grap= h databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http:= //p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment



---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to grap= h databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http:= //p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment





----------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases =
and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/s=
fu/NeoTech


_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment


-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases = and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/s= fu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

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