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* [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase Requirements
@ 2015-05-07 22:02 Matt Corallo
  2015-05-07 23:24 ` Joseph Poon
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 73+ messages in thread
From: Matt Corallo @ 2015-05-07 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

OK, so lets do that. I've seen a lot of "I'm not entirely comfortable
with committing to this right now, but think we should eventually", but
not much "I'd be comfortable with committing to this when I see X". In
the interest of ignoring debate and pushing people towards a consensus
at all costs, ( ;) ) I'm gonna go ahead and suggest we talk about the
second.

Personally, there are several things that worry me significantly about
committing to a blocksize increase, which I'd like to see resolved
before I'd consider supporting a blocksize increase commitment.

 * Though there are many proposals floating around which could
significantly decrease block propagation latency, none of them are
implemented today. I'd expect to see these not only implemented but
being used in production (though I dont particularly care about them
being all that stable). I'd want to see measurements of how they perform
both in production and in the face of high packet loss (eg across the
GFW or in the case of small/moderate DoS). In addition, I'd expect to
see analysis of how these systems perform in the worst-case, not just
packet-loss-wise, but in the face of miners attempting to break the system.

 * I'd very much like to see someone working on better scaling
technology, both in terms of development and in terms of getting
traction in the marketplace. I know StrawPay is working on development,
though its not obvious to me how far they are from their website, but I
dont know of any commitments by large players (either SPV wallets,
centralized wallet services, payment processors, or any others) to
support such a system (to be fair, its probably too early for such
players to commit to anything, since anything doesnt exist in public).

 * I'd like to see some better conclusions to the discussion around
long-term incentives within the system. If we're just building Bitcoin
to work in five years, great, but if we want it all to keep working as
subsidy drops significantly, I'd like a better answer than "we'll deal
with it when we get there" or "it will happen, all the predictions based
on people's behavior today say so" (which are hopefully invalid thanks
to the previous point). Ideally, I'd love to see some real free pressure
already on the network starting to develop when we commit to hardforking
in a year. Not just full blocks with some fees because wallets are
including far greater fees than they really need to, but software which
properly handles fees across the ecosystem, smart fee increases when
transactions arent confirming (eg replace-by-fee, which could be limited
to increase-in-fees-only for those worried about double-spends).

I probably forgot one or two and certainly dont want to back myself into
a corner on committing to something here, but those are a few things I
see today as big blockers on larger blocks.

Luckily, people have been making progress on building the software
needed in all of the above for a while now, but I think they're all
very, very immature today.

On 05/07/15 19:13, Jeff Garzik wrote:> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:03 PM,
Matt Corallo <bitcoin-list@bluematt.me
> <mailto:bitcoin-list@bluematt.me>> wrote:
-snip-
>> If, instead, there had been an intro on the list as "I think we should
>> do the blocksize increase soon, what do people think?", the response
>> could likely have focused much more around creating a specific list of
>> things we should do before we (the technical community) think we are
>> prepared for a blocksize increase.
>
> Agreed, but that is water under the bridge at this point.  You - rightly
> - opened the topic here and now we're discussing it.
>
> Mike and Gavin are due the benefit of doubt because making a change to a
> leaderless automaton powered by leaderless open source software is
> breaking new ground.  I don't focus so much on how we got to this point,
> but rather, where we go from here.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 73+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements
@ 2015-06-01 11:12 Thy Shizzle
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 73+ messages in thread
From: Thy Shizzle @ 2015-06-01 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mike Hearn, Alex Mizrahi; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev


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WOW!!!! Way to burn your biggest adopters who put your transactions into the chain.......what a douche.
________________________________
From: Mike Hearn<mailto:mike@plan99.net>
Sent: ‎1/‎06/‎2015 8:15 PM
To: Alex Mizrahi<mailto:alex.mizrahi@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev<mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements

Whilst it would be nice if miners in China can carry on forever regardless
of their internet situation, nobody has any inherent "right" to mine if
they can't do the job - if miners in China can't get the trivial amounts of
bandwidth required through their firewall and end up being outcompeted then
OK, too bad, we'll have to carry on without them.

But I'm not sure why it should be a big deal. They can always run a node on
a server in Taiwan and connect the hardware to it via a VPN or so.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 73+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements
@ 2015-06-01 13:06 Thy Shizzle
  2015-06-01 18:19 ` Warren Togami Jr.
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 73+ messages in thread
From: Thy Shizzle @ 2015-06-01 13:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Togami Jr.; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev


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Doesn't mean you should build something that says "fuck you" to the companies that have invested in farms of ASICS. To say "Oh yea if they can't mine it how we want stuff 'em" is naive. I get decentralisation, but don't dis incentivise mining. If miners are telling you that you're going to hurt them, esp. Miners that combined hold > 50% hashing power, why would you say too bad so sad? Why not just start stripping bitcoin out of adopters wallets? Same thing.
________________________________
From: Warren Togami Jr.<mailto:wtogami@gmail.com>
Sent: ‎1/‎06/‎2015 10:30 PM
Cc: Bitcoin Dev<mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements

Whilst it would be nice if miners in *outside* China can carry on forever
regardless of their internet situation, nobody has any inherent "right" to
mine if they can't do the job - if miners in *outside* China can't get the
trivial amounts of bandwidth required through their firewall *TO THE
MAJORITY OF THE HASHRATE* and end up being outcompeted then OK, too bad,
we'll have to carry on without them.


On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 12:13 AM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:

> Whilst it would be nice if miners in China can carry on forever regardless
> of their internet situation, nobody has any inherent "right" to mine if
> they can't do the job - if miners in China can't get the trivial amounts of
> bandwidth required through their firewall and end up being outcompeted then
> OK, too bad, we'll have to carry on without them.
>
> But I'm not sure why it should be a big deal. They can always run a node
> on a server in Taiwan and connect the hardware to it via a VPN or so.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

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_______________________________________________
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 73+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements
@ 2015-06-01 21:32 Thy Shizzle
  2015-06-01 22:13 ` Pindar Wong
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 73+ messages in thread
From: Thy Shizzle @ 2015-06-01 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Togami Jr.; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev


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Ah sorry, I just thought you were saying doesn't matter which side let 'em burn.

If I were the Chinese and people moved to 20mb MAX size blocks and said stuff you, I'd just start firing out small coinbase only blocks now, if they truly have >50% hashing power and they collaborate chances are they can build a longer chain of just coinbase for themselves then the rest of the network doing big blocks. They don't even have to propagate this chain to you in a hurry right? And then they never have to receive a 20mb block from you because they have a longer chain without 20mb blocks and always ahead of your big blocks. As long as it is the longest chain it is Authority so let you guys transact your coinbase from the blocks you create etc. then whamo along come the chinese and supply a longer chain of just coinbase only blocks which invalidates all your previous transactions and gives them all the coinbase they stamped, while invalidating yours.

But who cares about them right :p
________________________________
From: Warren Togami Jr.<mailto:wtogami@gmail.com>
Sent: ‎2/‎06/‎2015 4:19 AM
Cc: Bitcoin Dev<mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements

By reversing Mike's language to the reality of the situation I had hoped
people would realize how abjectly ignorant and insensitive his statement
was.  I am sorry to those in the community if they misunderstood my post. I
thought it was obvious that it was sarcasm where I do not seriously believe
particular participants should be excluded.

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 3:06 AM, Thy Shizzle <thyshizzle@outlook.com> wrote:

>  Doesn't mean you should build something that says "fuck you" to the
> companies that have invested in farms of ASICS. To say "Oh yea if they
> can't mine it how we want stuff 'em" is naive. I get decentralisation, but
> don't dis incentivise mining. If miners are telling you that you're going
> to hurt them, esp. Miners that combined hold > 50% hashing power, why would
> you say too bad so sad? Why not just start stripping bitcoin out of
> adopters wallets? Same thing.
>  ------------------------------
> From: Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail.com>
> Sent: ‎1/‎06/‎2015 10:30 PM
> Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: Block Size Increase Requirements
>
>   Whilst it would be nice if miners in *outside* China can carry on
> forever regardless of their internet situation, nobody has any inherent
> "right" to mine if they can't do the job - if miners in *outside* China
> can't get the trivial amounts of bandwidth required through their firewall *TO
> THE MAJORITY OF THE HASHRATE* and end up being outcompeted then OK, too
> bad, we'll have to carry on without them.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 12:13 AM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
>
>  Whilst it would be nice if miners in China can carry on forever
> regardless of their internet situation, nobody has any inherent "right" to
> mine if they can't do the job - if miners in China can't get the trivial
> amounts of bandwidth required through their firewall and end up being
> outcompeted then OK, too bad, we'll have to carry on without them.
>
>  But I'm not sure why it should be a big deal. They can always run a node
> on a server in Taiwan and connect the hardware to it via a VPN or so.
>
>

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_______________________________________________
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 73+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2015-06-01 22:14 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 73+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-05-07 22:02 [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase Requirements Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 23:24 ` Joseph Poon
2015-05-08  0:05 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-08  6:33   ` Arkady
2015-05-08 10:03 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-08 16:37   ` Peter Todd
2015-05-08 19:47     ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-09  3:08       ` Peter Todd
2015-05-16  4:39         ` Stephen
2015-05-16 11:29           ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-16 11:25         ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-29 22:36 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-29 23:25   ` Matt Corallo
     [not found]     ` <CABsx9T3__mHZ_kseRg-w-x2=8v78QJLhe+BWPezv+hpbFCufpw@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-30 19:32       ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-30 20:37         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 14:46           ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-31 14:49             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 14:59               ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-31 15:08                 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 15:45                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-29 23:42 ` Chun Wang
2015-05-30 13:57   ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-30 14:08     ` Pindar Wong
2015-05-30 22:05     ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-30 23:16       ` Brian Hoffman
2015-05-31  0:13         ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-31  5:05       ` gb
     [not found]     ` <CAFzgq-z5WCznGhbOexS0XESNGAVauw45ewEV-1eMij7yDT61=Q@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-31  1:31       ` [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: " Chun Wang
2015-05-31  2:20         ` Pindar Wong
2015-05-31 12:40         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 13:45           ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-31 14:54             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 22:55               ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-31 23:23                 ` Ricardo Filipe
2015-05-31 23:40                   ` Pindar Wong
2015-05-31 23:58                     ` Ricardo Filipe
2015-06-01  0:03                       ` Pindar Wong
2015-06-01  7:57                   ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-06-01 10:13                     ` Mike Hearn
2015-06-01 10:42                       ` Pindar Wong
2015-06-01 11:26                         ` Peter Todd
2015-06-01 12:19                           ` Pindar Wong
2015-06-01 11:02                       ` Chun Wang
2015-06-01 11:09                         ` Pindar Wong
2015-06-01 11:20                         ` Chun Wang
2015-06-01 13:59                           ` Gavin Andresen
2015-06-01 14:08                             ` Chun Wang
2015-06-01 15:33                               ` Mike Hearn
2015-06-01 16:06                                 ` Ángel José Riesgo
2015-06-01 14:46                             ` Oliver Egginger
2015-06-01 14:48                               ` Chun Wang
2015-06-01 16:43                             ` Yifu Guo
2015-06-01 20:01                             ` Roy Badami
2015-06-01 20:15                               ` Roy Badami
2015-06-01 13:21                         ` Mike Hearn
2015-06-01 12:29                       ` Warren Togami Jr.
2015-06-01 13:15                 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 12:52         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 13:31           ` [Bitcoin-development] [Bulk] " gb
2015-05-31 19:49             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31 14:17           ` [Bitcoin-development] " Dave Hudson
2015-05-31 14:34         ` Yifu Guo
2015-05-31 14:47           ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-31  7:05   ` [Bitcoin-development] " Peter Todd
2015-05-31 12:51     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-06-01 11:12 [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: " Thy Shizzle
2015-06-01 13:06 Thy Shizzle
2015-06-01 18:19 ` Warren Togami Jr.
2015-06-01 18:30   ` Mike Hearn
2015-06-01 18:44     ` Adam Back
2015-06-01 19:23   ` Btc Drak
2015-06-01 21:32 Thy Shizzle
2015-06-01 22:13 ` Pindar Wong

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