From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1X38OB-0003gS-1q for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 04 Jul 2014 18:39:15 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.216.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.176; envelope-from=ronaldbelliott@gmail.com; helo=mail-qc0-f176.google.com; Received: from mail-qc0-f176.google.com ([209.85.216.176]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1X38O9-0003IQ-3r for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 04 Jul 2014 18:39:14 +0000 Received: by mail-qc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id w7so1714793qcr.21 for ; Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.54.133 with SMTP id q5mr21683785qag.84.1404499147644; Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.97.67 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53B6DB38.7010709@jerviss.org> References: <10566815.3CllqoMfON@momentum> <53B6DB38.7010709@jerviss.org> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:39:07 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ron Elliott To: kjj Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c30e22c89f2b04fd6270a8 X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (ronaldbelliott[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1X38O9-0003IQ-3r Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] ASIC-proof mining X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 18:39:15 -0000 --001a11c30e22c89f2b04fd6270a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I feel everyone should re-read that last paragraph as it carries the most weight IMO. On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 9:50 AM, kjj wrote: > Just some general comments on this topic/discussion. > > I suspect that there exist no algorithms which cannot be done better in > an application-specific device than in a general purpose computer. And > if there is such a thing, then it must necessarily perform best on one > specific platform, making that platform the de facto application > specific device. > > I'm not sure how one would go about proving or disproving that, but it > seems very likely to be true. > > IO-bound is exactly the same as memory bound, for devices that have > enough memory. 20 GB is already trivial today, and you don't really get > into ask-the-wife-for-permission money until you cross 128 GB. The > exception would be if the IO was to an oracle outside of the device's > control, and artificially limited in throughput. Such a centralized > oracle would be contrary to the goals usually stated by people thinking > about anti-ASIC designs, so there isn't much point. > > Keeping the algorithm simple, and ASIC-easy, has one other advantage. > Just about anyone can sit down and design an ASIC for SHA, for example, > leading to diversity in the marketplace. A harder algorithm can still > be made into an ASIC (or more generally into an ASD), but will require > more skilled designers, more expensive fabrication, etc. This actually > concentrates the ASIC advantage into the hands of fewer people, which > again, is contrary to the stated goals. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Open source business process management suite built on Java and Eclipse > Turn processes into business applications with Bonita BPM Community Edition > Quickly connect people, data, and systems into organized workflows > Winner of BOSSIE, CODIE, OW2 and Gartner awards > http://p.sf.net/sfu/Bonitasoft > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- - Ron end of line. --001a11c30e22c89f2b04fd6270a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I feel everyone should re-read that last paragraph as it carries the most= weight IMO.


On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 9:50 AM, kjj <bitcoin-devel@jerviss.org= > wrote:
Just some general comments on this topic/discussion.

I suspect that there exist no algorithms which cannot be done better in
an application-specific device than in a general purpose computer. =C2=A0An= d
if there is such a thing, then it must necessarily perform best on one
specific platform, making that platform the de facto application
specific device.

I'm not sure how one would go about proving or disproving that, but it<= br> seems very likely to be true.

IO-bound is exactly the same as memory bound, for devices that have
enough memory. =C2=A020 GB is already trivial today, and you don't real= ly get
into ask-the-wife-for-permission money until you cross 128 GB. The
exception would be if the IO was to an oracle outside of the device's control, and artificially limited in throughput. =C2=A0Such a centralized oracle would be contrary to the goals usually stated by people thinking
about anti-ASIC designs, so there isn't much point.

Keeping the algorithm simple, and ASIC-easy, has one other advantage.
Just about anyone can sit down and design an ASIC for SHA, for example,
leading to diversity in the marketplace. =C2=A0A harder algorithm can still=
be made into an ASIC (or more generally into an ASD), but will require
more skilled designers, more expensive fabrication, etc. =C2=A0This actuall= y
concentrates the ASIC advantage into the hands of fewer people, which
again, is contrary to the stated goals.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Open source business process management suite built on Java and Eclipse
Turn processes into business applications with Bonita BPM Community Edition=
Quickly connect people, data, and systems into organized workflows
Winner of BOSSIE, CODIE, OW2 and Gartner awards
http://p.sf.ne= t/sfu/Bonitasoft
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment



--
= - Ron
end of line.
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