From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ue5hg-0003wL-11 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 19 May 2013 15:39:20 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of coinlab.com designates 209.85.216.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.43; envelope-from=peter@coinlab.com; helo=mail-qa0-f43.google.com; Received: from mail-qa0-f43.google.com ([209.85.216.43]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Ue5hc-0000Gl-9t for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 19 May 2013 15:39:20 +0000 Received: by mail-qa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id j11so1179856qag.9 for ; Sun, 19 May 2013 08:39:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=cw403JDeVJX0u/dcgMpIMoWtE3HqxZyT/bSjrGsB/Ng=; b=cOTLBg5Vrkq+FZOakj6GIwAksvGt2XeSu33KGh5g2yKJkSybwSVQwNHRvj89f87Blx 2ho80icSNDImGZJHWFymYYo6wjfQnmfQjtiu/P7XB5RBpDqX9fXcyoFKyYYXExGJWcFl d/2iHZqheyEImohRGP6wB4BtXqbqD+kJH8O+I+Ry3YN+r7MjOb96ee2C9XpH3ArS+zPP 0TBOUytwh8OMervY9m/JlqhyBN8Ii3Eqfy1SXpQdFRuJDyXrjcIkYU4Er+jOFTil5cuu jQwtxZRCO/3VgI60zTk880uvGVw8oe25zjyt15kdbHQqk+gn96fsyqFLKaxJc5Zd6QRd MTKg== X-Received: by 10.224.119.83 with SMTP id y19mr43755255qaq.7.1368976159383; Sun, 19 May 2013 08:09:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.49.35.208 with HTTP; Sun, 19 May 2013 08:08:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130519132359.GA12366@netbook.cypherspace.org> References: <20130519132359.GA12366@netbook.cypherspace.org> From: Peter Vessenes Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 08:08:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Back Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6d868eafd0af04dd139949 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn/LZJoV6FvDGqU//e5cGW1WX00rJ8L0HaQsi3J39Onb+THOKkEy1Req6OhhhqfmIh58rls X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1Ue5hc-0000Gl-9t Cc: Bitcoin-Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] is there a way to do bitcoin-staging? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 15:39:20 -0000 --047d7b6d868eafd0af04dd139949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think this is a very interesting idea. As Bitcoiners, we often stuff things into the 'alt chain' bucket in our heads; I wonder if this idea works better as a curing period, essentially an extended version of the current 100 block wait for mined coins. An alternate setup comes to mind; I can imagine this working as a sort of gift economy; people pay real BTC for merge-mined "beta BTC" as a way to support development. There is no doubt a more elegant and practical solution that might have different economic and crypto characteristics. On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Adam Back wrote: > Is there a way to experiment with new features - eg committed coins - that > doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impose > a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk? > > eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it > bitcoin-staging? where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the > mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but no > native mining. and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin to > move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1 > cryptographically, no exchange). > > Did anyone figure anything like that out? Seems vaguely doable and > maybe productive. The only people with coins at risk of defects in a new > feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coins > on bitcoin-staging. > > Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. I mean a real live system, > with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking > bitcoins > parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. In this way something > potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to the > main bitcoin network. eg particularly defenses against > > It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because > some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest > without more real activity. > > Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them > after > extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early > adopters). > > Adam > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete > security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and > efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls > from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- Are you coming to Bitcoin2013 in San Jose In May? ------------------------------ [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES CEO *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104 --047d7b6d868eafd0af04dd139949 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think this is a very interesting idea. As Bitcoiners, we= often stuff things into the 'alt chain' bucket in our heads; I won= der if this idea works better as a curing period, essentially an extended v= ersion of the current 100 block wait for mined coins.

An alternate setup comes to mind; I can imagine this working= as a sort of gift economy; people pay real BTC for merge-mined "beta = BTC" as a way to support development. There is no doubt a more elegant= and practical solution that might have different economic and crypto chara= cteristics.



On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Adam Back <adam@cy= pherspace.org> wrote:
Is there a way to experiment with new featur= es - eg committed coins - that
doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impose=
a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk?<= br>
eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it
bitcoin-staging? =A0where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but no<= br> native mining. =A0and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin to=
move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1
cryptographically, no exchange).

Did anyone figure anything like that out? =A0Seems vaguely doable and
maybe productive. =A0The only people with coins at risk of defects in a new=
feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coins<= br> on bitcoin-staging.

Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. =A0I mean a real live system,=
with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking bitcoin= s
parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. =A0In this way something potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to the<= br> main bitcoin network. =A0eg particularly defenses against

It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest
without more real activity.

Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them afte= r
extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early
adopters).

Adam

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete
security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial.
http://p.s= f.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment



--
Are you coming to Bitcoin2013 in San Jose In May?=A0

3D=PETER=A0VESSE= NES=A0
CEO

peter@coinlab.com=A0=A0/=A0=A0206.486.6856 = =A0/=A0SKYPE:=A0vessenes=A0
71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 =A0/=A0 SEATTLE, WA 98104

--047d7b6d868eafd0af04dd139949--