From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31A8C000B for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:09:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA0C4059F for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:09:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=blockstream-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lp-A2QOsMehQ for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:09:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-qv1-xf2a.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2a]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72EB404FE for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 02:09:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2a.google.com with SMTP id kd28so1117974qvb.2 for ; Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:09:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=blockstream-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iiohciB//MwOuNST3zFaitAvmHX1uDwVxSowXokZIpU=; b=R3QX+qLRmcq4RbPzG8b4i2rvyUBNr2MoxFZTSZdxoF4lp9wBn9ypa+V2yIFMvCuEWB 217NNdsajsjS4+kOgrcJxRkhClYfpQMaM8zeMW1yLlT+HgK/GJYb0EA8RKRzt4sqkiFO GEngBGhADsD2V+//sYO/xeq+Hb0g9Yy8xOsddxpW2KiOZ1MxlKYDFEdzMZQy25srwHfn yD7nvbt5OL8ROKsf+fti0oVnSLcFdqnKeyfDrtcGkDOXUhEKVDtBgRoRNxofEBaFdbOo 8GhWz8ypYZDveAS3/HrAosxZNW3dEpRHIH9Cdye7K90RXA19y/zYgrxEROiIRZIn3X/+ iTyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iiohciB//MwOuNST3zFaitAvmHX1uDwVxSowXokZIpU=; b=vTu0ZpO8eniq3VmXYcMsYhBFYNGYSLQmpTL/wGELCZ7v2zYdgkhq0cswqd0mTqcY1y bO03hTWjhF3efsFyW6nTstXcSf0Sj+1aACiJzy39BheozBv1X3H07xNf4a3TmUa7llKK aAKFu/iPPU2qjsK/UXs3HlNPwjp03Dk6HFEgnos1eUt1k9tk/7Ov8vitqN1PSAe09DXX mbm4W1FjUpEu1yLDCTfEG6oRzWKczermjqmJT3E59wv5nDLYjeKdsefjw7lUMyWBTw3A 7B6Urjy8W1ZCR5Riq0BD3TmECNR5C1RXMMIPD4lon0FyNFhAWZZXhOURcfjknq7+bnAG rCAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530hGsV9Srq5GZdJKjZ23X34fNu5iimUu4c3Uj5atQKoHpb9aMBb RcGAlFIrS1ob3kexlcGgpc4wqty4IpZQtRVHwOeYKg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyszBXd/xaurWl9YBTqs7lVrRI0WfISwnp4FQikomWZtTbmT4nCUgH52ozJyqJUK23ycSdbEPl6V6fqg7wTFWA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:22c:b0:432:6b2b:95d0 with SMTP id j12-20020a056214022c00b004326b2b95d0mr4057438qvt.63.1646532596508; Sat, 05 Mar 2022 18:09:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220304010442.GC3869@erisian.com.au> <0yCTRKhBa9IPPg5J4HfKxraWJ4w6gUS5LRAoCPk01NpbYk-9R5zxAOmJO1Z8voUiatUJugYB6Oa9t1wFLbhQSgDie8hBzr0Z1EJVm6XGvMI=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Russell O'Connor" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2022 21:09:45 -0500 Message-ID: To: ZmnSCPxj Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000086bac805d9833ebc" Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin scripting and lisp X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 02:09:58 -0000 --00000000000086bac805d9833ebc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The circuit generated from Simplicity was larger than the hand made one. On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 6:20 PM ZmnSCPxj wrote: > Good morning Russell, > > > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 8:41 AM Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > > > It seems like a decent concept for exploration. > > > > > > AJ, I'd be interested to know what you've been able to build with Chia > Lisp and what your experience has been... e.g. what does the Lightning > Network look like on Chia? > > > > > > One question that I have had is that it seems like to me that neither > simplicity nor chia lisp would be particularly suited to a ZK prover... > > > > Not that I necessarily disagree with this statement, but I can say that > I have experimented with compiling Simplicity to Boolean circuits. It was > a while ago, but I think the result of compiling my SHA256 program was > within an order of magnitude of the hand made SHA256 circuit for > bulletproofs. > > "Within" can mean "larger" or "smaller" in this context, which was it? > From what I understand, compilers for ZK-provable circuits are still not > as effective as humans, so I would assume "larger", but I would be much > interested if it is "smaller"! > > Regards, > ZmnSCPxj > --00000000000086bac805d9833ebc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The circuit generated from Simplicity was larger than= the hand made one.

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 6:20 PM ZmnSCPxj <<= a href=3D"mailto:ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com">ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> w= rote:
Good morni= ng Russell,

> On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 8:41 AM Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev <bitcoi= n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > It seems like a decent concept for exploration.
> >
> > AJ, I'd be interested to know what you've been able to bu= ild with Chia Lisp and what your experience has been... e.g. what does the = Lightning Network look like on Chia?
> >
> > One question that I have had is that it seems like to me that nei= ther simplicity nor chia lisp would be particularly suited to a ZK prover..= .
>
> Not that I necessarily disagree with this statement, but I can say tha= t I have experimented with compiling Simplicity to Boolean circuits.=C2=A0 = It was a while ago, but I think the result of compiling my SHA256 program w= as within an order of magnitude of the hand made SHA256 circuit for bulletp= roofs.

"Within" can mean "larger" or "smaller" in th= is context, which was it?
>From what I understand, compilers for ZK-provable circuits are still not as= effective as humans, so I would assume "larger", but I would be = much interested if it is "smaller"!

Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
--00000000000086bac805d9833ebc--