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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 3f1490d57ef6-e7f734a296bsi711497276.3.2025.06.04.10.45.17 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Jun 2025 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of roconnor@blockstream.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e; Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-b2d46760950so74226a12.3 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvxVDh865vgVdMtXRu7Tdy65L9PesSnwp7+NXlSjWQWYiJru89B+4b25Uuvx63 2yrIzHUACCW5iLUW4KAZHbssSw9Rsp9opUkxZoA790JTKE7MNzgmsfKjNLfWAoU2NOBAsnsYgiL sAJsFMC/jozwAEjE82n0zWbh9QsHjFmlwCNFYLK/nYvy8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:5107:b0:312:eaea:afa1 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-3130cdb31a5mr5364021a91.29.1749059116678; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 10:45:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20250523131541.1521C7C0DB0@smtp.postman.i2p> <20250524205608.D723F7C1191@smtp.postman.i2p> <20250525154052.28C0E7C1013@smtp.postman.i2p> <20250525214153.163D47C0BC6@smtp.postman.i2p> In-Reply-To: <20250525214153.163D47C0BC6@smtp.postman.i2p> From: "'Russell O'Connor' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:45:04 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFtSPnn2pYdwdrEFrFZf254av3FQdOxSAS_ZdYkHUJ8o2f0clOuP3tXbZW8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP39 Extension for Manual Seed Phrase Creation To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005756b10636c28f1a" X-Original-Sender: roconnor@blockstream.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@blockstream.com header.s=google header.b=SL7wP31b; spf=pass (google.com: domain of roconnor@blockstream.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=roconnor@blockstream.com; dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=blockstream.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com X-Original-From: "Russell O'Connor" Reply-To: "Russell O'Connor" Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000005756b10636c28f1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 3:57=E2=80=AFAM pithosian wr= ote: > I'm not totally against thinking about different ways to (effectively) > represent the data you'd use a descriptor for for simple use-cases, > just not personally convinced on the utility of a purely > hand-calculated mnemonic given the requirement of running (off the top > of my head) SHA512 PBKDF2 for the BIP 32 seed, and a SHA512 HMAC for > going from that to the root priv. > IMHO, the difference is that it is at least possible to cross-check the derivation of pubkeys and addresses from the master seed using hardware from different vendors. However it isn't really possible to cross-check the quality of the initial random generation. Some people are going to prefer to generate that randomness by hand in a fully transparent process and not hidden within some computer chip using a noisy transistor or whatever. Once again, I want to reiterate for this thread that there already exists a BIP for a hand-computable friendly master secret format, which is BIP-93 (codex32). Yes, hand computing the checksum for BIP-93 is a pain, but unlike BIP-39's checksum, it is actually doable. And unlike BIP-39's checksum, the checksum for codex32 is actually an error-correcting code, so you can actually repair errors and erasures in the data. It is even possible to use an untrusted computer to repair your codex32 string so that the computer learns practically zero information about your secret or secret share. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAMZUoKnzDf0hMC-i4Xis3GXW96fWRwJgKSzzcj5aqGg3zGM8Kg%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000005756b10636c28f1a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Jun 4, 2025 at 3:57=E2=80=AFAM pit= hosian <pithosian@i2pmail.org> wrote:
I&= #39;m not totally against thinking about different ways to (effectively) represent the data you'd use a descriptor for for simple use-cases,
just not personally convinced on the utility of a purely
hand-calculated mnemonic given the requirement of running (off the top
of my head) SHA512 PBKDF2 for the BIP 32 seed, and a SHA512 HMAC for
going from that to the root priv.


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