From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFF5C002D for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:49:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E56E605D6 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:47:22 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 0E56E605D6 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zUXIXGgSeOKs for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:47:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org DADB4605B2 Received: from mail-vk1-f180.google.com (mail-vk1-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DADB4605B2 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:47:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id s200so925365vkb.8 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9CJAYNrNPzC0rb6lGgqWNYiNX6xjEW8BHxoOPhebtTQ=; b=U0pYEm/3zxXJ31sZAXPgnSMsFztVWCtt72gBDnD0/aIX75sIQYhoIh3CFnpubA7IUK A/qi9kLjI7K2I0fNAQD6a8LG1K1VTFmfSRUbyc7+vcda+pqKU5NW7A21AfLvoLrlhtE+ wAFVyeUmxy1wcvcUeZBUotz1CU0dFC+UNJyoFsrE/n8K0QR/d59KruAzhdeNLa994rS5 xfqcyPBg12GwE6+BXqH2xCExzEVQlYiXPZdoIuZwJmWlHHSmLapXH9pGwII0aZv8onqW sIMhnmh0iNAwdCUS4sbARptTxqPuS/uviUGSIczneU/YvH4EJbLDdLUjZDTqFLQQIq1O ZWfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+oqLc3ZHqR2YKlxsT6yPXlq+luGSlOI8FUAp58G0aXbbhS+vUY P3nM30yaDHxefpkGPw0dhswqVMHNj5odviF8A9/DVno+CSI4twNz X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1stPgfRe/zr5Qk45rn1OUlwpkyrHN7WUJ5xxgSu7GmsLvhXOIbQUbPmMUOzbQDwAY9Ml7qDa0swE1bt3UxV/PI= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:a4c1:0:b0:36c:b0de:1c73 with SMTP id n184-20020a1fa4c1000000b0036cb0de1c73mr9501890vke.24.1657648039528; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 10:47:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ryan Grant Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:46:43 +0000 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Cc: Peter Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Security problems with relying on transaction fees for security X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:49:35 -0000 BIP119, OP_CTV, allows value to be assigned in a predetermined tree of payments that confirms with a single output. This allows batched transactions in the predetermined tree (e.g. withdrawals from a centralized exchange) to be anchored in a way that disallows double-spending of the inputs, yet allows the recipients to smooth out mining fees for their withdrawal outputs, at their leisure. It's a perfect design for a world where there are always more transactions to be made than block space allows, yet only some of them are urgent. As it applies to concerns mentioned in this thread, it can be used to shift transaction fees to later blocks. Whenever smoothing transaction fees would be a nice-to-have, this is one way to have it. https://utxos.org/uses/scaling/ https://utxos.org/analysis/bip_simulation/ On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 9:49 AM Peter wrote: > With 3000 Lightning open/ close tx per block and 6 billion adults > it's 38 years of backlog to onboard the entire adult > population. That's not including corporations. Separately, OP_CTV also allows slightly different payment channels from the existing Lightning Network, that allow non-interactive batched opens. Using this technique, onboarding 6 billion adults to payment channels would be limited only by their willingness to participate. https://utxos.org/uses/non-interactive-channels/