From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62FED516 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:31:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-yb0-f177.google.com (mail-yb0-f177.google.com [209.85.213.177]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A15241BB for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:31:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yb0-f177.google.com with SMTP id o9so23353923yba.3 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 12:31:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rgrant-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=tzqcPiYbK8SXralvOhFg6cFkBPGFiWYy1Yj7PQ+aR9E=; b=erUFPGwWzrEBTKaeoUQUhTCejxEmFnDluIN+g672HzH+IdW4LmQor2p5ALJJ5jR6AA XGLIGETI7lWmSYbNmGwp6Li1ZcC0d42jFOJJrXJPW5TI3eSiQzyM1+Zb400fUhIDgxwn OheiBUyy4Vt24aJ5oZgu72qxUMdu3gERWAI7PB61Bh2ag2CC9daHHfLwfdN/0AgfgDKY 9xJ1i+LVbbqfewRXa5l0XVTwUfl8BLhlXT3O8KEaAl7K5ag2c7edxQkWrm/HdammAYvD IDX/gOrOTF3u0e4gXgF0MSkZnFAStwr1NI7IcQjRtrSz7cQRtE2aaDrlhbgE/PT6km/Q jl5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tzqcPiYbK8SXralvOhFg6cFkBPGFiWYy1Yj7PQ+aR9E=; b=rg2YRtKSxz5ahSSGWOGql3Qw1GvnxceDl0szri/AcQanIW/XK5ROc0wML5kaMi7WE3 /HD2b459EpcO1IrsKOnEczg8gcGKybaX4mQJloA0J/KTa/sqsF0eemilQm6VJgtY4al9 ZOe6ay6vhmpFxwDSQd0cddnXmCgao1sk0z6PRiiOBq+XDk8PwZPgjRp+NWMEHx/azPuo K9m4SAU64utz1+wNG/SGmlrmgFlOY+V5L9d4yHeBeTFNVxEUCoD+I2u1qRsQ2B/9cw6k o0H3g3pmBWa4OYqilawETXtjoTQQY1P3gAYwjvfSjjvSDnqnFnlPEfL5CqE3h2H733u1 ukcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAKjWgBanD6Wh4/UhoZfdBEqJqV8dZC5OMX5Omf0N/t3Yw0pthv 9xf4Ylg5/LV0nTDIFA7urF/nAZVgYvSFwT70Vw== X-Received: by 10.37.32.195 with SMTP id g186mr23598025ybg.109.1497209490554; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rgrant@rgrant.org Received: by 10.37.55.86 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 12:31:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ryan Grant Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 15:31:00 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: --Vb0_x1LIAIwluDf-9LiznDUBs Message-ID: To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] extended BIP9 activation of segwit, for legacy nodes X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:31:32 -0000 This[1] idea from April would assist in a BIP149-like segwit activation on November 16th. Its goal is to be incredibly easy to test and deploy, right now, even before a decision on revisions to BIP149 is made, and well before such "BIP149ish" testing is itself complete. UASFs don't need time for most legacy nodes to upgrade - that's the point of a soft fork. UASFs simply need to have inevitability, which is provided by some nodes more than others. But for the node less instrumental in that inevitability, and more relaxed about scheduling upgrade work, being moved to a miner-protected consensus ruleset is not as desirable a position as the opportunity to participate fully. As a courtesy, the plan for soft forks has always been to allow legacy nodes time to upgrade to full participation. How much time should rollouts allow for this courtesy? Extended BIP9 activation of segwit (for legacy nodes) separates concerns between intending to activate segwit and its method of deployment, allowing "semi-legacy" nodes that have upgraded to include this proposal to participate immediately in a successful segwit activation, without needing any courtesy time to upgrade to the particular deployment logic. Code for deployment is included in the original email[1]. There's nothing missing from the logic shown. The whole intent of the proposal is that other deployment specifics are left to be defined by future proposals. In the same block that THRESHOLD_ACTIVE is reached for segwit, require Consensus::DEPLOYMENT_SEGWIT_ALT1 to also reach THRESHOLD_ACTIVE, and the burden of the future proposal is fulfilled. If the idea proves broken or of no benefit, when actually implementing and testing future deployments, then we can avoid using DEPLOYMENT_SEGWIT_ALT1 until it expires, and zero nodes get hurt. Let's look at how this affects options for how to deploy segwit... / BIP149ish UASF, without this proposal / roadmap: - BIP149ish debated (handles BIP141 success, unlike BIP149) - BIP149ish tested - BIP149ish courtesy timeout debated - BIP148 fails - BIP149ish released - BIP141 fails - BIP149ish courtesy timeout expires - BIP149ish activates - segwit activates - legacy nodes must upgrade before recognizing BIP149 activation If we try to restrict ourselves to only the original service bit, we see a tension between activating soon and leaving legacy nodes on a miner-protected consensus. We also see a tension between *planning* how long it will take to debate and test UASF logic, and setting expectations for when a reasonable activation date is. These seemingly small tensions complicate the solution, and push it out of developer's visions of what is feasible. It's not clear how soon it can happen, so it doesn't get started in an urgent manner. It doesn't get started in an urgent manner, so it's not clear how soon it can happen. / BIP149ish UASF, with this proposal / roadmap: - this proposal debated - this proposal tested - this proposal released (courtesy begins) - BIP149ish debated (handles BIP141 success, unlike BIP149) - BIP149ish tested - BIP148 fails - BIP149ish released - BIP141 fails - BIP149ish activates - segwit activates - semi-legacy nodes *immediately* use segwit, via this proposal We can remove the courtesy timeout problem, because the courtesy begins as soon as this proposal goes live. This simplifies debate on how BIP149ish should deploy, and helps make reasonable a much quicker segwit activation should BIP141 fail. With a clear route to quick activation for semi-legacy nodes, the UASF can be planned for activation in as short a window as the key nodes can upgrade. Not even all the key nodes need to upgrade: it's still a soft fork, and UASFs simply need to have inevitability. These differences can help us aim for activating segwit on November 16th, if BIP141 and BIP148 do not succeed earlier. Since BIP149 as originally conceived is slow as molasses, BIP149ish still needs debate, BIP141 has steadfast enemies, and the community is slow to adapt to BIP148's complicated commitment requirements, it is prudent to take this intermediate step allowing quicker BIP149ish activation. [1] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/014160.html