From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WOBHa-0007Wf-A0 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:27:10 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of zikula.org designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.181; envelope-from=drak@zikula.org; helo=mail-we0-f181.google.com; Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com ([74.125.82.181]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WOBHY-0004Fn-SC for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:27:10 +0000 Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id q58so1281152wes.12 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:27:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Vbeb6c7n+5mKx+i8h46DA/y7L0hm/Fe4Gdtz3Hel95Q=; b=F03Y86fd+NRVkqNbU0Q+y1mg7CgAuuBb8yBIzrO1uGmbVDcW3AYR9yCuPgHrSLQ70I HVPSz8bEOuW4p4r30J2Vqb/IZwXzkcBUdTGxGMjasIr6kuTi0LnkDxIUyFptJZxd5/0A wMsJV9oaCIbVgsbSJoPuZQMuQ7c/8T7qkkhA6D0q8pNIY4vy5v1N28NKAWRW+832yDA0 rbxvONBSz3WUnlwcg0lpcxZDz1HgJl7Hje8CmEzAqNvWot+elDLX1048nVVYOR6T6zyQ wElUXUODH95aL20pKmu7DWOfhmE9YFooKifvCBQYXoFeoLs0tW3jN2FfF/Kx1TJzCS3X 4qdw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk0n4s8y/sEO9ijq/va/+x23dsacmdWrVXc+X+ddtRRx+hO6UKvZQkPdSloxh/qFD3QPbu6 X-Received: by 10.194.84.144 with SMTP id z16mr3169191wjy.23.1394738822445; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:27:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.205.69 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:26:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> <5321D95C.2070402@gmail.com> From: Drak Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:26:42 +0000 Message-ID: To: Jeff Garzik Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0102ddae110d5504f481f008 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WOBHY-0004Fn-SC Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:27:10 -0000 --089e0102ddae110d5504f481f008 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I agree with you Jeff. The unit switch needs to happen once and once only, but that is exactly why I said the defaults really need to change in Bitcoin-Qt since that is still the main reference implementation and it will influence others. Bitpay could also take the lead here and make the switch to their defaults. That would greatly assist the uBTC movement. Regardless of what anyone says, Bitcoin-Qt is still the main reference implementation and the best way to encourage a change in the community at large is for the default units to be changed here. Core devs can surely garner enough consensus among themselves to accept and merge a PR to that effect. That will send a message, more than anything else that can be done. My two satoshi. Drak On 13 March 2014 16:29, Jeff Garzik wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > > Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if > > there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do > > another Armory release and could support this very easily. > > mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future. Just > a question of when, not if. > > People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small > values (e.g. Yen) just fine. > People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field > experience shows. > > To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting > any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient > today, not in the future. > > I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows: To support > accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point > conversion must be performed. This produces a situation where your > accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers > in the bitcoin software. That, in turn, making auditing more > difficult, particularly for outsiders. > > Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that -- > like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can > solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC->uBTC switch. > > -- > Jeff Garzik > Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist > BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --089e0102ddae110d5504f481f008 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with you Jeff. The unit switch needs to happen onc= e and once only, but that is exactly why I said the defaults really need to= change in Bitcoin-Qt since that is still the main reference implementation= and it will influence others.

Bitpay could also take the lead here and make the switch to = their defaults. That would greatly assist the uBTC movement.

=
Regardless of what anyone says, Bitcoin-Qt is still the main ref= erence implementation and the best way to encourage a change in the communi= ty at large is for the default units to be changed here. Core devs can sure= ly garner enough consensus among themselves to accept and merge a PR to tha= t effect. That will send a message, more than anything else that can be don= e.

My two satoshi.

Drak


On 13 March= 2014 16:29, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:1= 4 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmai= l.com> wrote:
> Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if
> there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. =C2=A0We're ju= st about to do
> another Armory release and could support this very easily.

mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future. =C2= =A0Just
a question of when, not if.

People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small
values (e.g. Yen) just fine.
People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field
experience shows.

<vendor hat: on> =C2=A0To roll out QuickBooks support --without conve= rting
any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient
today, not in the future.

I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows: =C2=A0To support
accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point
conversion must be performed. =C2=A0This produces a situation where your accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers
in the bitcoin software. =C2=A0That, in turn, making auditing more
difficult, particularly for outsiders.

Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that --
like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can
solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC->uBTC switch.

--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bitpay.com/

-----------------------------= -------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases = and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf= .net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

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