From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Wf8ms-0000oE-Fa for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:34 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; envelope-from=mh.in.england@gmail.com; helo=mail-ob0-f179.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f179.google.com ([209.85.214.179]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Wf8mr-0002gt-IN for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:34 +0000 Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id vb8so283756obc.38 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.132.236 with SMTP id ox12mr1101952oeb.81.1398780808180; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mh.in.england@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.96.180 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140428214102.GA8347@netbook.cypherspace.org> References: <5359E509.4080907@gmail.com> <535A60FE.10209@gmail.com> <535BA357.6050607@gmail.com> <535CFDB4.1000200@gmail.com> <20140428214102.GA8347@netbook.cypherspace.org> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:13:28 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hGUSamA1aOB5NJ0rRKFlhvFeff0 Message-ID: From: Mike Hearn To: Adam Back Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b41cd2831314104f82f0965 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mh.in.england[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1Wf8mr-0002gt-IN Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage Finney attacks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:34 -0000 --047d7b41cd2831314104f82f0965 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I do think we need to move beyond this idea of Bitcoin being some kind of elegant embodiment of natural mathematical law. It just ain't so. Every time miners and nodes ignore a block that creates >formula() coins that's a majority vote on a controversial political matter, as evidenced by the disagreement with mainstream economics and that it's one of the most common things for alt coins to change. Indeed Satoshi's chosen inflation formula is a highly political statement on the value of inflation - he could have programmed Bitcoin to inflate forever and avoided a whole area of politics, but he chose not to. So please, let's agree to accept that Bitcoin is ultimately just a piece of software that encodes rules helping us run our little community in some specific ways. It's not physics and we should believe our own hype by pretending it is. On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:41 PM, Adam Back wrote: > I think the reason that it would likely work out badly is that its not > provable, and so no consensus rule can be constructed requiring proof, so > then it risks devolving to a political decision. > It's the other way around. If miners decide to fork the chain then that leaves no proof (beyond the old blocks, which could have been a natural fork - there's no way to know - and nodes don't want to keep them around anyway). If they explicitly vote to get the same effect but without actually forking, it leaves a proof in the form of the votes in the coinbase that can be seen afterwards. > Step 3: Finney attackers vote down other pools to make the point. It only works if the majority of hashpower is controlled by attackers, in which case Bitcoin is already doomed. So it doesn't matter at that point. --047d7b41cd2831314104f82f0965 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do think we need to move beyond this idea of Bitcoin bei= ng some kind of elegant embodiment of natural mathematical law. It just ain= 't so.=C2=A0

Every time miners and nodes ignore a bl= ock that creates >formula() coins that's a majority vote on a contro= versial political matter, as evidenced by the disagreement with mainstream = economics and that it's one of the most common things for alt coins to = change. Indeed Satoshi's chosen inflation formula is a highly political= statement on the value of inflation - he could have programmed Bitcoin to = inflate forever and avoided a whole area of politics, but he chose not to.<= /div>

So please, let's agree to accept that Bitcoin is ul= timately just a piece of software that encodes rules helping us run our lit= tle community in some specific ways. It's not physics and we should bel= ieve our own hype by pretending it is.

On Mon,= Apr 28, 2014 at 11:41 PM, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:
I think the reason that it would likely work= out badly is that its not
provable, and so no consensus rule can be constructed requiring proof, so then it risks devolving to a political decision.

<= /div>
It's the other way around. If miners decide to fork the chain= then that leaves no proof (beyond the old blocks, which could have been a = natural fork - there's no way to know - and nodes don't want to kee= p them around anyway). If they explicitly vote to get the same effect but w= ithout actually forking, it leaves a proof in the form of the votes in the = coinbase that can be seen afterwards.
=C2=A0
Step 3: Finney attackers vo= te down other pools to make the point.

It o= nly works if the majority of hashpower is controlled by attackers, in which= case Bitcoin is already doomed. So it doesn't matter at that point.=C2= =A0
--047d7b41cd2831314104f82f0965--