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From: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
To: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] New BIP32 structure
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:42:19 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CANEZrP0t6E5tKk_jcApwa+o4-qBg9uyRnePGarZXeLDxcKS+Rg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <F2C8C044-EF92-4CCE-9235-28CA7FCE3526@bitsofproof.com>

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At this point I'm not sure how much further work people want to do on this:
I got the impression that Trezor will ship soon, and Thomas V seemed
satisfied too. I'm not sure we can get all wallets to be fully
interoperable given the flexibility inherent in BIP32 and people's
differing use cases.

Andreas: good point but I really hope nobody ever deletes a seed after all
this work we put in to make backups so easy! I'm not sure we can really
stop it anyway: not unless we make the seed a full blown data structure
with hints to other apps that they should refuse to load it. And it's a bit
late for that now.



On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>wrote:

> We had a similar meeting with Andreas Schildbach (Android Bitcoin Wallet),
> Jan Moller, Andreas  Petersson (Mycelium), Thomas V (Electrum), Tamas
> Blummer, Tamas Bartfai (Bits of Proof)
> at the Inside Bitcoin Conference in Berlin.
>
> I remember that there were different opinions on how to use a hierarchy
> and it did seem to me they could eventually be "standardized" for the
> retail customer but definitelly not for corporate use,
> where hierarchy will certainly map to organisational hierarchy or cost
> centres.
>
> A notable suggestion was to instead of building a directory of magic
> numbers (like 0 for Bitcoin, 1 for Litecoin etc) use a hash of the word
> "Bitcoin", "Litecoin", "Dogecoin", so collosion is unlikely and
> cetral directory is not needed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com
>
> On 26.03.2014, at 21:49, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
>
> Myself, Thomas V (Electrum) and Marek (Trezor) got together to make sure
> our BIP32 wallet structures would be compatible - and I discovered that
> only I was planning to use the default structure.
>
> Because I'm hopeful that we can get a lot of interoperability between
> wallets with regards to importing 12-words paper wallets, we brainstormed
> to find a structure acceptable to everyone and ended up with:
>
>   /m/cointype/reserved'/account'/change/n
>
> The extra levels require some explanation:
>
>    - cointype:  This is zero for Bitcoin. This is here to support two
>    things, one is supporting alt coins based off the same root seed. Right now
>    nobody seemed very bothered about alt coins but sometimes feature requests
>    do come in for this. Arguably there is no need and alt coins could just use
>    the same keys as Bitcoin, but it may help avoid confusion if they don't.
>
>    More usefully, cointype can distinguish between keys intended for
>    things like multisig outputs, e.g. for watchdog services. This means if
>    your wallet does not know about the extra protocol layers involved in this,
>    it can still import the "raw" money and it will just ignore/not see the
>    keys used in more complex transactions.
>
>    - reserved is for "other stuff". I actually don't recall why we ended
>    up with this. It may have been intended to split out multisig outputs etc
>    from cointype. Marek, Thomas?
>
>    - account is for keeping essentially wallets-within-a-wallet to avoid
>    mixing of coins. If you want that.
>
>    - change is 0 for receiving addresses, 1 for change addresses.
>
>    - n is the actual key index
>
> For bitcoinj we're targeting a deliberately limited feature set for hdw v1
> so I would just set the first three values all to zero and that is a
> perfectly fine way to be compatible.
>
> The goal here is that the same seed can be written down once, and meet all
> the users needs, whilst still allowing some drift between what wallets
> support.
>
> Pieter made the I think valid point that you can't really encode how keys
> are meant to be used into just an HDW hierarchy and normally you'd need
> some metadata as well. However, I feel interop between wallets is more
> important than arriving at the most perfect possible arrangement, which
> feels a little like bikeshedding, so I'm happy to just go with the flow on
> this one.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>

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  reply	other threads:[~2014-03-27  9:42 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 100+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-03-26 20:49 [Bitcoin-development] New BIP32 structure Mike Hearn
2014-03-26 23:37 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-27  1:01   ` Alan Reiner
2014-03-27  6:15     ` Mike Belshe
2014-03-27 10:57   ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 11:39     ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 13:30       ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 13:38         ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27  1:13 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-27  5:34 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-27  7:09 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-27  9:42   ` Mike Hearn [this message]
2014-03-27 11:35   ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 15:43   ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-27 15:57     ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-27 16:06       ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 16:13         ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-27 16:07       ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-27 16:14       ` Pieter Wuille
2014-03-27 16:21         ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 16:28           ` Pieter Wuille
2014-03-27 17:49             ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-28 14:59             ` slush
2014-04-08 12:43               ` slush
2014-04-08 13:18                 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-08 13:40                   ` slush
2014-04-08 13:43                     ` slush
2014-04-08 13:53                       ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-08 13:59                         ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-08 14:00                         ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-08 14:35                         ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-08 15:41                         ` slush
2014-04-23 17:42                           ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 18:01                             ` slush
2014-04-23 18:18                               ` slush
2014-04-23 18:39                                 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 18:46                                   ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 19:00                                     ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 19:06                                       ` slush
2014-04-23 19:36                                         ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 19:46                                           ` slush
2014-04-23 19:07                                       ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 19:29                                       ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 19:44                                         ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 19:49                                           ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 19:55                                             ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 19:57                                               ` slush
2014-04-23 20:01                                                 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:04                                                   ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:09                                                     ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:16                                                       ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:32                                                         ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:35                                                           ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:41                                                             ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:43                                                               ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:54                                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 21:06                                                                   ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:18                                                                     ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 21:22                                                                       ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 21:33                                                                         ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:42                                                                           ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 21:44                                                                             ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:48                                                                             ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 21:53                                                                           ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 21:24                                                                       ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:07                                                                   ` slush
2014-04-23 20:59                                                                 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:17                                                       ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 20:12                                                     ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 20:08                                                   ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 20:01                                               ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 20:02                                                 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:04                                                   ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-24  6:54                                           ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-24  7:10                                             ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-24  7:21                                               ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-24  8:15                                                 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-24  7:42                                               ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-24  8:09                                               ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 18:48                                   ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-08 14:49                 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-04-08 15:46                   ` slush
2014-04-08 15:58                     ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-04-08 16:24                       ` slush
2014-03-27 11:20 ` Thomas Voegtlin
     [not found]   ` <CAJna-HhmFya+3W67qQt0wMhW=B4vJvwdkr-5WnU+KEaKq7uaUA@mail.gmail.com>
2014-03-27 12:06     ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 12:28       ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 12:49         ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 13:12           ` Thomas Kerin
2014-03-27 13:19             ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 13:49           ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 13:58             ` Jim
2014-03-27 14:20               ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 15:17             ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-27 13:07         ` Matias Alejo Garcia
2014-03-27 13:44       ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 13:53         ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 14:03           ` Pavol Rusnak
     [not found]       ` <CAJna-HitjJbL9TnfxTY=+TvfaeNvZM6aPWmNYmHUCwmw6V8PUg@mail.gmail.com>
2014-03-27 15:04         ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 11:36 ` Pavol Rusnak

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