From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WTADy-0003Wk-En for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:20:02 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.219.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.219.53; envelope-from=mh.in.england@gmail.com; helo=mail-oa0-f53.google.com; Received: from mail-oa0-f53.google.com ([209.85.219.53]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WTADw-0000Zk-3C for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:20:01 +0000 Received: by mail-oa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id j17so4290637oag.40 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 06:19:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.132.236 with SMTP id ox12mr516020oeb.81.1395926394756; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 06:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mh.in.england@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.71.231 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 06:19:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53340999.807@gmx.de> <5334144A.9040600@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:19:54 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EdIdM8qiegRdqJ4orPFsRPeFL7o Message-ID: From: Mike Hearn To: Thomas Kerin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b41cd28e4665d04f5967089 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mh.in.england[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WTADw-0000Zk-3C Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] New BIP32 structure X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:20:02 -0000 --047d7b41cd28e4665d04f5967089 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Obviously, SHA256 can't magically generate more entropy out of nothing, it just stretches whatever is put in. If your seed was only 32 bits then hashing wouldn't save you: every possible private key could easily be calculated in advance. On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Thomas Kerin wrote= : > Isn't the length of the seed arbitrary anyway? Once decoded using whateve= r > mnemonic implementation (electrums, or BIP0039) the bytestream is > immediately passed to HMAC-SHA256 to generate the master key. No matter > what your initial entropy is, it would be hashed anyway. > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: > >> Ah, BIP32 allows for a range of entropy sizes and it so happens that the= y >> picked 256 bits instead of 128 bits. >> >> I'd have thought that there is a right answer for this. 2^128 should not >> be brute forceable, and longer sizes have a cost in terms of making the >> seeds harder to write down on paper. So should this be a degree of freed= om? >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: >> >>> By the way, I just noticed that greenaddress.it is creating seeds that >>> have 24 words instead of 12. Does anyone know what's up with that? They >>> claim to be using BIP32 wallets so I wanted to see if they were using t= he >>> default structure and if so, whether bitcoinj was compatible with it >>> (before I switch to the one discussed here). But it seems we fall at th= e >>> first hurdle ... >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Thomas Voegtlin wrote= : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 27/03/2014 12:30, Marek Palatinus a =C3=A9crit : >>>> > Ah, I forget to two things, which should be into the BIP as well: >>>> > >>>> > a) Gap factor for addresses; as Thomas mentioned, although some >>>> software >>>> > can watch almost unlimited amount of unused addresses, this is serio= us >>>> > concern for lightweight or server-based wallets like Electrum or >>>> > myTREZOR. myTREZOR currently uses gap factor 10, which is (from my >>>> > experience so far) quite sane for most of users. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, I was planning to increase the number of available unused address= es >>>> to 10 or 20 in the bip32 version of Electrum. >>>> >>>> Related to this, here is another idea I would like to submit: >>>> >>>> Instead of using a "gap limit" (maximal number of consecutive unused >>>> addresses), I think we should get rid of the topology, and simply coun= t >>>> the number of unused addresses since the beginning of the sequence. >>>> Indeed, the topology of the sequence of addresses is of no interest to >>>> the user. Users often misinterpret "gap limit" as the "number of unuse= d >>>> addresses available", so I think we should just give them what they wa= nt >>>> :) This is easier to understand, and it makes things more predictable, >>>> because the wallet will always display the same number of unused >>>> addresses (except when it is waiting for confirmations). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> > --047d7b41cd28e4665d04f5967089 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Obviously, SHA256 can't magically generate more entrop= y out of nothing, it just stretches whatever is put in. If your seed was on= ly 32 bits then hashing wouldn't save you: every possible private key c= ould easily be calculated in advance.


On Thu, Mar 2= 7, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Thomas Kerin <thomas.kerin@gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't the length o= f the seed arbitrary anyway? Once decoded using whatever mnemonic implement= ation (electrums, or BIP0039) the bytestream is immediately passed to HMAC-= SHA256 to generate the master key. No matter what your initial entropy is, = it would be hashed anyway.


On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Mi= ke Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
Ah, BIP32 allows for a rang= e of entropy sizes and it so happens that they picked 256 bits instead of 1= 28 bits.

I'd have thought that there is a right answer for this. = 2^128 should not be brute forceable, and longer sizes have a cost in terms = of making the seeds harder to write down on paper. So should this be a degr= ee of freedom?


On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
By the way, I just noticed that greenaddress.it is creating seeds that have = 24 words instead of 12. Does anyone know what's up with that? They clai= m to be using BIP32 wallets so I wanted to see if they were using the defau= lt structure and if so, whether bitcoinj was compatible with it (before I s= witch to the one discussed here). But it seems we fall at the first hurdle = ...


On Thu, Mar 2= 7, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Thomas Voegtlin <thomasv1@gmx.de> wrote:


Le 27/03/2014 12:30, Marek Palatinus a =C3=A9crit :
> Ah, I forget to two things, which should be into the BIP as well:
>
> a) Gap factor for addresses; as Thomas mentioned, although some softwa= re
> can watch almost unlimited amount of unused addresses, this is serious=
> concern for lightweight or server-based wallets like Electrum or
> myTREZOR. myTREZOR currently uses gap factor 10, which is (from my
> experience so far) quite sane for most of users.


Yes, I was planning to increase the number of available unused addresses to 10 or 20 in the bip32 version of Electrum.

Related to this, here is another idea I would like to submit:

Instead of using a "gap limit" (maximal number of consecutive unu= sed
addresses), I think we should get rid of the topology, and simply count
the number of unused addresses since the beginning of the sequence.
Indeed, the topology of the sequence of addresses is of no interest to
the user. Users often misinterpret "gap limit" as the "numbe= r of unused
addresses available", so I think we should just give them what they wa= nt
:) This is easier to understand, and it makes things more predictable,
because the wallet will always display the same number of unused
addresses (except when it is waiting for confirmations).


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_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment



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