From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4AD2C002B for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 19:59:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D8C81A58 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 19:59:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org B1D8C81A58 Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=a/8DmIgN X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yp5yF1Cq16YD for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 19:59:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 3E0CB8142E Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E0CB8142E for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 19:59:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id a9so3118375ljr.13 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:59:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Y0A8JVKP9rDS07bFY/8+7vv0Ylrxnn9UpGgWO+IhqP8=; b=a/8DmIgNdfRS+ErHolRYuUbhU0e5JXs0XFM+NABP+YqedhICtMEkECvTkJFCq0oVFU 1YdaN7MOOeWTDMuzDB/JWoJ8WX7NojL3037uPLOkVsFKiS4mWDisMlC2zocAwAgH9wWB bvaeU6jk7tksv/lTNgnuTzA36WIUARUsA4+kS24gFeeWhDA4qdx0T0QsVOaCrCTNhoIA +zxGZmYtvfKoqE1U8jBqyvS3JpquB5HTE8bnbHe915ipX4s1m9lG8XQj+PvrCzZRt4b0 eDOqWoyK1M4gsFoS8vyzpYOFMo3V1Fm8NMms4iFKYU/4Yys1kjfWbFTcHjcKOb84EoAY fk6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Y0A8JVKP9rDS07bFY/8+7vv0Ylrxnn9UpGgWO+IhqP8=; b=i2dLRiI/wRd1cMb+3iVXHvJ2VdAGUpAHmAd3uGd8dMWKLR7glCrDukebEZljBi6pnS Ar4HL36HDllAAez1o7i3D8y88F8ZNI+h1Z5cWwpTYimtcpb1bLKGazuu3tKzoBG5t8Q0 OjCnh7IbjiCbSywxzN+KSIkeTNkPjDkuZuyKfTU3VRub5JxBdU/o9f4gutkOMzkSRttD o00jwIdBl6+6q2h4/F+QnEJMu3Kyvbkl9DzZgIYIrpdKpW9nnTy/lgpoJpRhpgHHAxHN 2HMAaPlImiMsQ6Y+rGtuUjceXIbjXWfDUXA9ktHmaOM/l+y3R3O45aPLzwD2XTqgF5nS mNvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXMFB1CRSDh9scvCgHwvHqrBod5qe6aNBrGy2RK2hZii3PNbUy/ Ni0B0N85Ks5WJOnIsQpbfzT9lhQX1P0/L+XAQXPuk/kU X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set822Z0ZvLqEA2ULSKrek8DG/JmxGD7YCqCiyeaalrw1ZpUrvWQTh5UoYfgKM/IPgXJ/Oe1kL0om1qt3pzuQAnI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1719:b0:293:4fde:f8bc with SMTP id be25-20020a05651c171900b002934fdef8bcmr1999271ljb.6.1676577554736; Thu, 16 Feb 2023 11:59:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57f780b1-f262-9394-036c-70084320e9cf@peersm.com> <3d00aacb-585d-f875-784d-34352860d725@peersm.com> <230265ee-c3f8-dff3-9192-f0c8dc4d913c@peersm.com> <76718304-A8E3-46E6-B2F7-DE86831F15DF@petertodd.org> <228e8706-72c7-8d5f-b6fb-c71a2e56efde@peersm.com> In-Reply-To: <228e8706-72c7-8d5f-b6fb-c71a2e56efde@peersm.com> From: Claus Ehrenberg Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 20:59:06 +0100 Message-ID: To: Aymeric Vitte , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000096aaa005f4d6a1ba" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:18:19 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Debate: 64 bytes in OP_RETURN VS taproot OP_FALSE OP_IF OP_PUSH X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 19:59:19 -0000 --00000000000096aaa005f4d6a1ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I propose to require all data to be in the op_return output PLUS add a required op_return_hash field, which is checked by consensus. So that node can re-validate the chain without having to store/download/look at the contents of op_return data. The benefit of that little redundancy is that "content-sensitive" communities can ignore the date they don't like. Cheers Claus On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 7:30 PM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > It's super unclear how long it could take for such a change to be adopted > > Then the answer is simple, see: > https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7#workaround-= to-the-80b-op_return-limitation > > Outstandingly, very, mega, bad, but working, bringing bitcoin back 10 > years ago > > But why not? If bitcoin folks don't get that we need a 1tx storage > solution for the future, then let's bring back bitcoin into the past and > destroy coins > Le 12/02/2023 =C3=A0 17:23, Aymeric Vitte a =C3=A9crit : > > https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27043#issuecomment-1427069403 > > "What is the process to have someone do the PR for this? Or I do it and > most likely it will be a very shxtty one since I am not a C/C++ expert, > then wasting the time of everybody > > It's urgently required, I did consider OP_RETURN as a dart in the past bu= t > changed my mind, it's adapted to the current evolutions, not flooding > bitcoin with 2 txs while only 1 is needed > > If not the best 1 tx solution is super simple: store in addresses, and > super bad at the end because burning bitcoins, while still not expensive = if > you don't need to store big things" > > Le 05/02/2023 =C3=A0 19:12, Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit= : > > > > On Sat., Feb. 4, 2023, 21:01 Peter Todd, wrote: > >> >> >> On February 5, 2023 1:11:35 AM GMT+01:00, Russell O'Connor via >> bitcoin-dev wrote: >> >Since bytes in the witness are cheaper than bytes in the script pubkey, >> >there is a crossover point in data size where it will simply be cheaper >> to >> >use witness data. Where that crossover point is depends on the finer >> >details of the overhead of the two methods, but you could make some >> >reasonable assumptions. Such a calculation could form the basis of a >> >reasonable OP_RETURN proposal. I don't know if it would be persuasive, >> but >> >it would at least be coherent. >> >> I don't think it's worth the technical complexity trying to carefully >> argue a specific limit. Let users decide for themselves how they want to >> use OpReturn. >> > > Even better. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing listbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.orghttps://list= s.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > -- > Sophia-Antipolis, France > CV: https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf > LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26 > GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms > A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gist.github.com/Ay= ms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7 > A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3b= eed1bfeba7 > Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet > Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transac= tions > torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live > node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor > Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.p= eersm.com > Peersm : http://www.peersm.com > > > -- > Sophia-Antipolis, France > CV: https://www.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf > LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26 > GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms > A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gist.github.com/Ay= ms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7 > A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3b= eed1bfeba7 > Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet > Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transac= tions > torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live > node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor > Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.p= eersm.com > Peersm : http://www.peersm.com > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --00000000000096aaa005f4d6a1ba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I propose to require all data to be in the op_return outpu= t PLUS add a required op_return_hash field, which is checked by consensus. = So that node can re-validate the chain without having to store/download/loo= k at the contents of op_return data. The benefit of that little redundancy = is that "content-sensitive" communities can ignore the date they = don't like.

Cheers
Claus

On Thu, Feb = 16, 2023 at 7:30 PM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

It's super unclear how long it could take for such a change to b= e adopted

Then the answer is simple, see: https://gist.gi= thub.com/Ayms/01dbfebf219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7#workaround-to-the-80b-op_ret= urn-limitation

Outstandingly, very, mega, bad, but working, bringing bitcoin back 10 years ago

But why not? If bitcoin folks don't get that we need a 1tx storage solution for the future, then let's bring back bitcoin into the past and destroy coins

Le 12/02/2023 =C3=A0 17:23, Aymeric Vitte a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=20

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issu= es/27043#issuecomment-1427069403

"What is the process to have someone do the PR for this? Or I = do it and most likely it will be a very shxtty one since I am not a C/C++ expert, then wasting the time of everybody

It's urgently required, I did consider OP_RETURN as a dart in the past but changed my mind, it's adapted to the current evolutions, not flooding bitcoin with 2 txs while only 1 is needed

If not the best 1 tx solution is super simple: store in addresses, and super bad at the end because burning bitcoins, while still not expensive if you don't need to store big things= "


Le 05/02/2023 =C3=A0 19:12, Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=20


On Sat., Feb. 4, 2023, 21:01 Peter Todd, <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:


On February 5, 2023 1:11:35 AM GMT+01:00, Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin= -dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>Since bytes in the witness are cheaper than bytes in the script pubkey,
>there is a crossover point in data size where it will simply be cheaper to
>use witness data.=C2=A0 Where that crossover point is depends on the finer
>details of the overhead of the two methods, but you could make some
>reasonable assumptions.=C2=A0 Such a calculation could form the basis of a
>reasonable OP_RETURN proposal.=C2=A0 I don't know i= f it would be persuasive, but
>it would at least be coherent.

I don't think it's worth the technical complexity t= rying to carefully argue a specific limit. Let users decide for themselves how they want to use OpReturn.

Even better.


_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoi=
n-dev


--=20
Sophia-Antipolis, France
CV: https://w=
ww.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf
LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
GitHub : https://=
www.github.com/Ayms
A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gis=
t.github.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7
A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfeb=
f219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transacti=
ons
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.peersm.com
Peersm : http://www.pee=
rsm.com

--=20
Sophia-Antipolis, France
CV: https://w=
ww.peersm.com/CVAV.pdf
LinkedIn: https://fr.linkedin.com/in/aymeric-vitte-05855b26
GitHub : https://=
www.github.com/Ayms
A Universal Coin Swap system based on Bitcoin: https://gis=
t.github.com/Ayms/029125db2583e1cf9c3209769eb2cdd7
A bitcoin NFT system: https://gist.github.com/Ayms/01dbfeb=
f219965054b4a3beed1bfeba7
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transacti=
ons
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.peersm.com
Peersm : http://www.pee=
rsm.com
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--00000000000096aaa005f4d6a1ba--