From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B4AC0012; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:38:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DB580C47; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:38:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0mtLyG-a99H; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:38:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-vk1-xa34.google.com (mail-vk1-xa34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a34]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 011AF80C2B; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:38:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk1-xa34.google.com with SMTP id u68so6635110vke.11; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 04:38:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7kWo9kv9LOqYziy05s8yU3srpB1nSiKZ5M+GapR+y3U=; b=AWaAaJUwdgDLNFEQXUMbFruQVcgr6ao6cxFd+Q8oJiDr5wmL/gA1wE2c3fdeNk2+1N T9/ffJ/DGcXObez9z97t+Y4AWoKighqar5IsGtJOXtYoWcT/wc7M7ppyw3f6fLZk/5av IyMIylx2HZDEBRFCDtI20HkrD/Tl6NaSjC9sepGLznoiTB0Ud9LEQbcN9MGpZ15JNvcv pG7NtOARw6fdWrYyBIOeLOJSc5ny+Qoo1vWmPfzQ1c1dYnIc673uWRCYPg8B6QH48n7t TNqJT/UC2BXMrj9Q6hvXtnDOkFuhdSDbOFlBnpXVkurdftBZ5bc8TJylBiQC6uLTXeRF +Dqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7kWo9kv9LOqYziy05s8yU3srpB1nSiKZ5M+GapR+y3U=; b=pNS12aTiBSJVZnpaCii9lByesj0uMe/qQb2GGpPefFrVPAjKQBn4ObSu2HC9PBcOyn cKiuPv7w1vNwRmvcKi7w27/TQ0HMWadd51k2XCeqKrDpaZybRYSxcO3/9z6/HZfkyjFI 9Z4nXhONdA0bzVnSWyImn7L1ENDDvH0VmMxAIQVfWPUbkXxSg+DthaKhxIdK/vLsqSZ6 H4Q6CGnBZSE+/yIXYb7NBc9DvDpM6m1JdIIglL4H3a/ovuosnfc2jyIaNo1JgvQi6Z9D Arvfjd/VndGSmCs/u5L9CynMLR5IT1jxVd0ve40oL8Y7/zewv4MyRiEMR0psqxYWsSMk jTCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nxS8FncisNi+0bGyVIqGotXgrY/n+fLVE38jRHchKwdKH6kwp 0Oxx7cyA5OVAPagH/RRDk7V3Hy1MShsypumPhB0mTTvJT6M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZGYc+izzFwdgFymHJwVcK3hUwlLFA8HOqogP5FpaXNz87P81uPeWugCue6HvvHPeTgcywSYH7V9WgwIoJt1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:201e:: with SMTP id l30mr39735394vkd.10.1638794320761; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 04:38:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Christian Moss Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 12:38:30 +0000 Message-ID: To: Karl , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059580c05d2798962" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 18:01:07 +0000 Cc: lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org, =?UTF-8?Q?H=C3=A9ctor_Jos=C3=A9_C=C3=A1rdenas_Pacheco?= Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Sending OP_RETURN via Bitcoin Lightning X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 12:38:45 -0000 --00000000000059580c05d2798962 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, it is not really possible in the way you think, mainly because lightning relies on liquidity to work, i.,e. lots of bitcoin locked up in channels to allow liquidity, NFTs are not liquid, so if you have 1 NFT then it would be impossible to send on the network I think the best off chain solution to NFTs on bitcoin is using Ruben Somsens state chain protocol, which allows you to swap utxos off chain, and those off chain utxos could harbour an op return/nft On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Karl via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm not a bitcoin developer. > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 5:05 AM H=C3=A9ctor Jos=C3=A9 C=C3=A1rdenas Pacheco = via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I=E2=80=99ve been thinking about how OP_RETURN is being used to create a= nd trade >> NFTs on Bitcoin (think RarePepes, SoG and other new ones) and was wonder= ing >> if it=E2=80=99s possible to >> > > Do you have a link to any of these protocols? > > make transactions with this opcode via Lightning. >> >> More specific questions could be: >> >> 1. Can opcodes like OP_RETURN be inside a channel=E2=80=99s opening o= r >> closing transaction? >> 2. If so, could that OP_RETURN change hands within that channel or >> network of channels? >> >> OP_RETURNs do not have ownership according to the bitcoin network. It i= s > not hard to define a protocol that associates an OP_RETURN with ownership= , > and ownership could then be transferred via lightning by sending associat= ed > currency via lightning. Robustness improvements seem possible. > > >> 1. If possible, could the OP_RETURN be divisible? Could one person >> send a piece of a OP_RETURN just like one can do right now on the pri= mary >> ledger or would it need to maintain the OP_RETURN code intact? >> >> OP_RETURNs themselves do not have ownership, but you can define a > protocol that gives them divisible ownership, including via lightning. > > I=E2=80=99m assuming that, if possible, this would need a protocol layer = parallel >> to Bitcoin/Lightning that stores and reads all Bitcoin transactions and = the >> ones which involve the node's channels as well as the ones with the >> OP_RETURN, just like CounterParty does right now with the primary ledger= . >> >> Thank in advance. >> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 >> >> *H=C3=A9ctor C=C3=A1rdenas*@hcarpach >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --00000000000059580c05d2798962 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, it is not really possible in the way you think, mainly= because lightning=C2=A0relies=C2=A0on liquidity to work, i.,e. lots of bit= coin locked up in channels to allow liquidity, NFTs are not liquid, so if y= ou have 1 NFT then it would be impossible to send on the network

I t= hink the best off chain solution to NFTs on bitcoin is using Ruben Somsens = state chain protocol, which allows you to swap utxos off chain, and those o= ff chain utxos could harbour an op return/nft

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 A= M Karl via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:


=
make transactions with this opcode via Lightning.

More specific questions could be:
  1. Can opcodes like = OP_RETURN be inside a channel=E2=80=99s opening or closing transaction?
  2. If so, could that OP_RETURN change hands within that channel or networ= k of channels?
OP_RETURNs do not have ownership according to the bit= coin network.=C2=A0 It is not hard to define a protocol that associates an = OP_RETURN with ownership, and ownership could then be transferred via light= ning by sending associated currency via lightning.=C2=A0 Robustness improve= ments seem possible.

<= div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
  1. If pos= sible, could the OP_RETURN be divisible? Could one person send a piece of a= OP_RETURN just like one can do right now on the primary ledger or would it= need to maintain the OP_RETURN code intact?

<= div>I=E2=80=99m assuming that, if possible, this would need a protocol laye= r parallel to Bitcoin/Lightning that stores and reads all Bitcoin transacti= ons and the ones which involve the node's channels as well as the ones = with the OP_RETURN, just like CounterParty does right now with the primary = ledger.

Thank in advance.
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
H=C3=A9ctor C=C3=A1rdenas
@hcarpach

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