From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Z3TrU-000679-9F for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 18:39:28 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.181; envelope-from=benjamin.l.cordes@gmail.com; helo=mail-ob0-f181.google.com; Received: from mail-ob0-f181.google.com ([209.85.214.181]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Z3TrT-00082s-6g for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 18:39:28 +0000 Received: by obbgp2 with SMTP id gp2so28665675obb.2 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.73.82 with SMTP id w79mr7065807oia.102.1434134361733; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.49.205 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 11:39:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3287607.HcH18TyfSu@crushinator> References: <20150612181153.GB19199@muck> <23144512.HX7dfatEFr@crushinator> <20150612183421.GE19199@muck> <3287607.HcH18TyfSu@crushinator> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 20:39:21 +0200 Message-ID: From: Benjamin To: Matt Whitlock Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (benjamin.l.cordes[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1Z3TrT-00082s-6g Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] User vote in blocksize through fees X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 18:39:28 -0000 This is a misguided idea, to say the least. If such a mechanism of of user input would be possible, one would use it for transaction verification in the first place. In proof-of-stake outcomes are determined by vote by stake (that vote has very different characteristics than vote by compute power). There is no such thing as making it possible to determine what "users want". That's what the proof-of-work mechanism does in the first place, only that it is now unfortunately skewed/corrupted/(whatever you want to call it). Before centralization the concept of "miners" didn't exist in Bitcoin and miners were roughly identical to users. Peer-to-Peer implies only one class of users. A big problem with such a vote (in PoW and PoS): miners get paid for their work and have incentives to raise fees. Those who pay fees would have no say in whether those fees are fair or not. Transaction verification has to be roughly profitable, but there is no fixed formula for determining profitability. On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Matt Whitlock wrot= e: > On Friday, 12 June 2015, at 11:20 am, Mark Friedenbach wrote: >> Peter it's not clear to me that your described protocol is free of miner >> influence over the vote, by artificially generating transactions which t= hey >> claim in their own blocks > > Miners could fill their blocks with garbage transactions that agree with = their vote, but this wouldn't bring them any real income, as they'd be payi= ng their own money as fees to themselves. To get real income, miners would = have to vote in accordance with real users. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 02:22:36PM -0400, Matt Whitlock wrote: >> Why should miners only be able to vote for "double the limit" or "halve"= the limit? If you're going to use bits, I think you need to use two bits: >> >> 0 0 =3D no preference ("wildcard" vote) >> 0 1 =3D vote for the limit to remain the same >> 1 0 =3D vote for the limit to be halved >> 1 1 =3D vote for the limit to be doubled >> >> User transactions would follow the same usage. In particular, a user vot= e of "0 0" (no preference) could be included in a block casting any vote, b= ut a block voting "0 0" (no preference) could only contain transactions vot= ing "0 0" as well. > > Sounds like a good encoding to me. Taking the median of the three > options, and throwing away "don't care" votes entirely, makes sense. > >> Incidentally, I love this idea, as it addresses a concern I immediately = had with Jeff's proposal, which is that it hands control exclusively to the= miners. And your proposal here fixes that shortcoming in a economically po= werful way: miners lose out on fees if they don't represent the wishes of t= he users. > > Thanks! I personally expect disaster to ensue with this kind of > proposal, but I'm less concerned if the disaster is something users > explicitly allowed to happen in a consensual way. > > -- > 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > 0000000000000000127ab1d576dc851f374424f1269c4700ccaba2c42d97e778 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 02:26:20PM -0400, Matt Whitlock wrote: >> On Friday, 12 June 2015, at 11:20 am, Mark Friedenbach wrote: >> > Peter it's not clear to me that your described protocol is free of min= er >> > influence over the vote, by artificially generating transactions which= they >> > claim in their own blocks >> >> Miners could fill their blocks with garbage transactions that agree with= their vote, but this wouldn't bring them any real income, as they'd be pay= ing their own money as fees to themselves. To get real income, miners would= have to vote in accordance with real users. > > Exactly. I very explicitly am proposing that we consider giving users a > mechanism to pay for votes to give them a way to directly influence the > outcome. > > -- > 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > 0000000000000000127ab1d576dc851f374424f1269c4700ccaba2c42d97e778 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Matt Whitlock wrot= e: > On Friday, 12 June 2015, at 7:34 pm, Peter Todd wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 02:22:36PM -0400, Matt Whitlock wrote: >> > Why should miners only be able to vote for "double the limit" or "halv= e" the limit? If you're going to use bits, I think you need to use two bits= : >> > >> > 0 0 =3D no preference ("wildcard" vote) >> > 0 1 =3D vote for the limit to remain the same >> > 1 0 =3D vote for the limit to be halved >> > 1 1 =3D vote for the limit to be doubled >> > >> > User transactions would follow the same usage. In particular, a user v= ote of "0 0" (no preference) could be included in a block casting any vote,= but a block voting "0 0" (no preference) could only contain transactions v= oting "0 0" as well. >> >> Sounds like a good encoding to me. Taking the median of the three >> options, and throwing away "don't care" votes entirely, makes sense. > > I hope you mean the *plurality* of the three options after throwing away = the "don't cares," not the *median*. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development