From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A06891674 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:07:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ig0-f177.google.com (mail-ig0-f177.google.com [209.85.213.177]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D87C82E6 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by igxx6 with SMTP id x6so24919122igx.1 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:07:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Ooq3CPnfqLan5zhnh+h+l0dPLUdEmvgCNw6ws3vDV2A=; b=qjoe+J0y/n/ff+XpzVlJrCb4hTS+ou6jQAqCYzr6nUmHmF0zKL0OKwbqSNz3TTM4Rz m7Zj3eMi4Z9TrupwutSyp9LXfwJ6oakf7JE9L3Wtg3aripQqeOtKDfzYC2vbGXlALTlc sq59Ip1eL6TV3OlhNhVsNmYof55qMRMMzeGBgCM3QZjpzxGDkfn+8yIFiUEI+mm156Bk VpWkZ5OkXNPjoFakPvxi8jbn0ciL4F8Mhaoe5uBOAOFpUCr/w0T8hl0Tg6iWpF0RbJsE 0+m29q5pK4rFlBCRD0K8zQKbXo93eE76mL7shtm4JIDHoORV8md4IQKfv0KQwrLN7RIm zjTg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.107.68 with SMTP id ha4mr85110igb.35.1442606845249; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.106.103 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:07:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55FC6951.9010704@gmail.com> References: <5D55F6EC-801B-4607-882F-B76CF57298B1@gmail.com> <55FC6951.9010704@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 16:07:25 -0400 Message-ID: From: Alex Morcos To: Patrick Strateman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10ca758fe36405200b14a7 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hash of UTXO set as consensus-critical X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:07:26 -0000 --047d7b10ca758fe36405200b14a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess I always assumed that UTXO set commitments were an alternative security model (between SPV and full-node), not that they would cause the existing security model to be deprecated. On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Full nodes using UTXO set commitments is a change to the bitcoin > security model. > > Currently an attacker with >50% of the network hashrate can rewrite > history. > > If full nodes rely on UTXO set commitments such an attacker could create > an infinite number of bitcoins (as in many times more than the current > 21 million bitcoin limit). > > Before we consider mechanisms for UTXO set commitments, we should > seriously discuss whether the security model reduction is reasonable. > > On 09/18/2015 12:05 PM, Rune Kj=C3=A6r Svendsen via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > Currently, when a new node wants to join the network, it needs to > retrieve the entire blockchain history, starting from January 2009 and up > until now, in order to derive a UTXO set that it can verify new > blocks/transactions against. With a blockchain size of 40GB and a UTXO si= ze > of around 1GB, the extra bandwidth required is significant, and will keep > increasing indefinitely. If a newly mined block were to include the UTXO > set hash of the chain up until the previous block =E2=80=94 the hash of t= he UTXO > set on top of which this block builds =E2=80=94 then new nodes, who want = to know > whether a transaction is valid, would be able to acquire the UTXO set in = a > trustless manner, by only verifying proof-of-work headers, and knowing th= at > a block with an invalid UTXO set hash would be rejected. > > > > I=E2=80=99m not talking about calculating a complicated tree structure = from the > UTXO set, which would put further burden on already burdened Bitcoin Core > nodes. We simply include the hash of the current UTXO set in a newly > created block, such that the transactions in the new block build *on top* > of the UTXO set whose hash is specified. This actually alleviates Bitcoin > Core nodes, as it will now become possible for nodes without the entire > blockchain to answer SPV queries (by retrieving the UTXO set trustlessly > and using this to answer queries). It also saves bandwidth for Bitcore Co= re > nodes, who only need to send roughly 1GB of data, in order to synchronise= a > node, rather than 40GB+. I will continue to run a full Bitcoin Core node, > saving the entire blockchain history, but it shouldn=E2=80=99t be a requi= rement to > hold the entire transaction history in order to start verifying new > transactions. > > > > As far as I can see, this also forces miners to actually maintain an > UTXO set, rather than just build on top of the chain with the most > proof-of-work. Producing a UTXO set and verifying a block against a chain > is the same thing, so by including the hash of the UTXO set we force mine= rs > to verify the block that they want to build on top of. > > > > Am I missing something obvious, because as far as I can see, this solve= s > the problem of quadratic time complexity for initial sync: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTgjrS-BPWDQ&t=3D2h02m12s > > > > The only added step to verifying a block is to hash the UTXO set. So it > does require additional computation, but most modern CPUs have a SHA256 > throughput of around 500 MB/s, which means it takes only two seconds to > hash the UTXO set. And this can be improved further (GPUs can do 2-3 GB/s= ). > A small sacrifice for the added ease of initial syncing, in my opinion. > > > > /Rune > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --047d7b10ca758fe36405200b14a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I guess I always assumed that UTXO set commitments were an= alternative security model (between SPV and full-node), not that they woul= d cause the existing security model to be deprecated.

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Fri, Sep 18, 20= 15 at 3:43 PM, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev <bitc= oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Full nodes using UTXO set commitments is a change to the bit= coin
security model.

Currently an attacker with >50% of the network hashrate can rewrite hist= ory.

If full nodes rely on UTXO set commitments such an attacker could create an infinite number of bitcoins (as in many times more than the current
21 million bitcoin limit).

Before we consider mechanisms for UTXO set commitments, we should
seriously discuss whether the security model reduction is reasonable.

On 09/18/2015 12:05 PM, Rune Kj=C3=A6r Svendsen via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Currently, when a new node wants to join the network, it needs to retr= ieve the entire blockchain history, starting from January 2009 and up until= now, in order to derive a UTXO set that it can verify new blocks/transacti= ons against. With a blockchain size of 40GB and a UTXO size of around 1GB, = the extra bandwidth required is significant, and will keep increasing indef= initely. If a newly mined block were to include the UTXO set hash of the ch= ain up until the previous block =E2=80=94 the hash of the UTXO set on top o= f which this block builds =E2=80=94 then new nodes, who want to know whethe= r a transaction is valid, would be able to acquire the UTXO set in a trustl= ess manner, by only verifying proof-of-work headers, and knowing that a blo= ck with an invalid UTXO set hash would be rejected.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not talking about calculating a complicated tree structure= from the UTXO set, which would put further burden on already burdened Bitc= oin Core nodes. We simply include the hash of the current UTXO set in a new= ly created block, such that the transactions in the new block build *on top= * of the UTXO set whose hash is specified. This actually alleviates Bitcoin= Core nodes, as it will now become possible for nodes without the entire bl= ockchain to answer SPV queries (by retrieving the UTXO set trustlessly and = using this to answer queries). It also saves bandwidth for Bitcore Core nod= es, who only need to send roughly 1GB of data, in order to synchronise a no= de, rather than 40GB+. I will continue to run a full Bitcoin Core node, sav= ing the entire blockchain history, but it shouldn=E2=80=99t be a requiremen= t to hold the entire transaction history in order to start verifying new tr= ansactions.
>
> As far as I can see, this also forces miners to actually maintain an U= TXO set, rather than just build on top of the chain with the most proof-of-= work. Producing a UTXO set and verifying a block against a chain is the sam= e thing, so by including the hash of the UTXO set we force miners to verify= the block that they want to build on top of.
>
> Am I missing something obvious, because as far as I can see, this solv= es the problem of quadratic time complexity for initial sync: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DTgjrS-BPWDQ&t= =3D2h02m12s
>
> The only added step to verifying a block is to hash the UTXO set. So i= t does require additional computation, but most modern CPUs have a SHA256 t= hroughput of around 500 MB/s, which means it takes only two seconds to hash= the UTXO set. And this can be improved further (GPUs can do 2-3 GB/s). A s= mall sacrifice for the added ease of initial syncing, in my opinion.
>
> /Rune
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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